The Crusades

[The once and future king]

Is in not fair to give it some context by comparing it to another religion, so we can see if religions have something in common.

Some nice quotes from the Bible :

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Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

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The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

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"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)

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"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)

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Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD's judgment has come. The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners. "On that day of judgment," says the LORD, "I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs.

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"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

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You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

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They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

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Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
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Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

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Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



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[MMMMMM]

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I've read much of it, Nicky, though that was long ago; lately I've been reading the Sura which is probably most warlike (Sura 9).

Why don't you and I both read the rest of it, and return to this aspect of the discussion in a few months, with fresh and fuller perspectives?


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Nicky, I must apologize here for having written a misleading statement.

I should have written, "I've read various parts of it, and some of that was long ago; and I've read much about it. Altogether I've assimiliated enough information to feel I understand the gist of it. Lately, I've been looking over Sura 9, again."

By the way, that about describes my reading of the Bible, too, though I've read more of Christianity than of Islam. And I do feel confident that I understand the gist of both religions.

Anyway, if we can find the time, Nicky, it might be worthwhile to read the rest of it over the next few months and return to this aspect of the discussion both of us more specifically knowledgeable.

[MMMMMM]

Hi OnceAndFutureKing,

Quoting the Bible is perfectly acceptable, and you have a point. However please note that you are quoting the Old Testament; you are not quoting the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. Hence you are more essentially quoting from Judaism than from Christianity.

[The once and future king]

I didnt say whay religion I was quoting, I just said lets look at other ones so we can put Islam in context.

Is there a passage in the Koran more warlike than this quote from the old testament?

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Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

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The difference I see in references/comparisons of violence described in the Koran and the Bible, is that today's Christian does not practice acts of violence in the name of his/her faith. Occasional rants/outbursts from the occasional TV-evangelist aside, the message of the Bible is love, peace, acceptance, understanding of everyone.

I doubt we'll ever hear of fundamentalist Imams calling for ecumenical gatherings. I've yet to hear of a call for world-wide unity and agreement among the Imams to decide what the Koran teaches. I do hear of Imams deciding to form their personal armies and encouraging their followers to kill and maim. I doubt even Falwell or Robertson will go that far.

[MMMMMM]

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I didnt say whay religion I was quoting, I just said lets look at other ones so we can put Islam in context.

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Is there a passage in the Koran more warlike than this quote from the old testament?

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Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

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That's an evil passage indeed, one of the worst I have ever read in religious texts; and I am not defending the Old Testament. I think the old laws and ideologies were barbaric. However, you will find nothing like that in the New Testament teachings of Jesus.

Such barbarism is one good reason for Jesus to have established an entirely new platform for believers.

[etgryphon]

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Such barbarism is one good reason for Jesus to have established an entirely new platform for believers.


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This is untrue. Jesus never invalidates the Old Testament. He just provided the means by which the passages that have been sighted are no longer necessary. Jesus provided a way to satify God's just punishment for sins.

-Gryph

[DVaut1]

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Hi OnceAndFutureKing,

Quoting the Bible is perfectly acceptable, and you have a point. However please note that you are quoting the Old Testament; you are not quoting the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. Hence you are more essentially quoting from Judaism than from Christianity.

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1) I know many Christians who hold the Old Testament in high esteem, and aren't so cavalier in turning it aside as you are.

2) To hold to your standard, we should also be in the process of 'fighting back against Jews, and driving them back from whence they came' or whatever such nonsense you believe we ought to be currently doing to Muslims because their religion is inherently violent and that they present a danger to the peace-loving religions of the world.

See anything justifiable about that? I don't.

[MMMMMM]

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The difference I see in references/comparisons of violence described in the Koran and the Bible, is that today's Christian does not practice acts of violence in the name of his/her faith.

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The Old Testament laws do not properly apply to Christians anyway; only the teachings and instructions given by Jesus count now. True Christians should not practice violence against humans in the name of the faith. The instructions of Jesus are also quite clear about not resisting evil, and about turning the other cheek. Many "Christians" however do not understand this, and that goes for some clergy as well.

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Occasional rants/outbursts from the occasional TV-evangelist aside, the message of the Bible is love, peace, acceptance, understanding of everyone.

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Those who espouse violence in the name of Christianity do so out of ignorance, and have effectively ignored or turned the teachings of Jesus Christ upside down. That goes for the Pope who started the Crusades, too! Just because I think the First Crusade was a good idea, does NOT mean I think it was in keeping with true Christian belief.

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I doubt we'll ever hear of fundamentalist Imams calling for ecumenical gatherings. I've yet to hear of a call for world-wide unity and agreement among the Imams to decide what the Koran teaches. I do hear of Imams deciding to form their personal armies and encouraging their followers to kill and maim. I doubt even Falwell or Robertson will go that far.

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You doubt well.

[DVaut1]

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The difference I see in references/comparisons of violence described in the Koran and the Bible, is that today's Christian does not practice acts of violence in the name of his/her faith. Occasional rants/outbursts from the occasional TV-evangelist aside, the message of the Bible is love, peace, acceptance, understanding of everyone.

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I'm not quite so sure that this is the case. In fact, I hope BLUFFthis or Peter666 comes to defend the notion that, in fact, Christianity is not about the love, peace, acceptance, and understanding of everyone. Maybe M can elaborate.

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I doubt we'll ever hear of fundamentalist Imams calling for ecumenical gatherings. I've yet to hear of a call for world-wide unity and agreement among the Imams to decide what the Koran teaches.

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Do fundamentalist Christians try such things? Of course fundamentalist practitioners (of any religion) will likely be unwilling to call for ecumenical gatherings -- that's part of what makes them fundamentalist (although I'm willing to concede that we might have varied definitions and conceptions of what fundamentlism is).

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I do hear of Imams deciding to form their personal armies and encouraging their followers to kill and maim. I doubt even Falwell or Robertson will go that far.

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You will find (on many dark corners of the internet, and elsewhere) Christians calling for such things (Google 'Army of God' for a disgusting example). Thankfully, such people are relegated to the shadows of American society, and rightfully so. Certainly, similar-type people of the Islamic faith have found themselves in positions of power across the Middle East and elsewhere; and yet the reasons for this are many and varied, and can't be easily explained away as due to 'the inherent nature of Islam' (and many would rightfully claim, IMO, that the United States over-arching Cold War philosophy of a foreign policy dominated by realpolitik at any cost had an effect, to one degree or another...but I would certainly argue that the problem is deeper than that, and has a long and complicated history, to European colonialism and beyond).