Couple of hands on chip accumulation vs stack preservation

[Black Aces 518]

I've been a little confused on where I should draw the line on accumulating chips vs avoiding confrontations with other big stacks when I have a big stack already. Here are a couple of hands from a recent tournament I played where I wasn't sure (and still am not sure) what the appropriate lines would be.

The tourney is live, 34 runners, $50 buyin with $10 bounty for each knockout. Structure is WSOP ME blinds/antes with 20 minute rounds. Top 6 are paid: $680, $390, $230, $170, $130, $100.

HAND I
Blinds are 200/400/a50. I have 24K and am the chip leader, approximately 18 players remain. The stacks at my table range from 2K to 21K. The table has been generally tight, and I have played aggressively to take advantage. I just suffered a 6K hit a few hands back.

I get K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the CO and it's folded to me. I raise to 800 and the BB calls. BB has the 21K stack. Flop comes K96 with one club. The BB checks, and here is my first decision point. I decide that the flop is pretty harmless and slowplaying headsup is the best way to get lots of chips here, and so I check. Agree/disagree?

Turn is the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. BB checks, and I am not willing to check again, if he has nothing so be it. I bet 2500. BB check/raises to 6000. I have 3 options here, fold, call, push. Folding seems awful, especially given the club draw. Calling and pushing are close to me. I think that the check behind on the flop is going to induce this type of betting from several hands that I beat. If I am beat right now, I should have 7-9 outs at minimum, and as many as 13. Thoughts? If you advocate a call, what is your line on a blank river and he checks? He pushes? Obviously on a K, 9 or club, I'm getting the $$ in the middle.

HAND II
Final table, 7 remaining (6 pay). Blinds 1500/3000/a 300, raising the next hand to 2000/4000/a500. I am chip leader at 70K. The other stacks range from 65K down to about 15K. The next highest after the 65K is around 40K. I have been very active lately. The orbit before this one, I had back to back hands where I raised and laid down to all-in ( I had QT suited on the button, folded to me, followed by 33 in the cutoff folded to me.) The previous hand, I raised to 10K with AK and won uncontested.

I pick up TT UTG and raise to 10K. UTG+1 (the other big stack) calls. Everyone else folds. Flop is 776 rainbow. Here was my thought process, feel free to deconstruct as needed. I almost surely have the best hand. JJ-AA would likely reraise, esp vs the other big stack with 5 players yet to act. The hands I'm beat by right now are 77, 66, and maybe A7, but I think this player would fold here 75% of the time with A7 suited.

Here were my options as I saw them. 1) Bet 10-15K. If I do this, what is my reaction to a coldcall? A push? 2) Check, with the intention of raising. This seemed to be the best way to get money in the pot with what almost surely is the best hand right now. If he pushes, this just clarifies that I have the best hand, and I should call, yes? 3) Open push. This has the detriment of getting no more $$ from hands like AK or AQ, but may possibly induce a fold from JJ and maybe (but probably not) QQ. Slight chance of call from 88 or 99.

I ultimately decided to checkraise. I check, he bets 10K, I push. Thoughts?

[-Oz-]

[ QUOTE ]
HAND I
Blinds are 200/400/a50. I have 24K and am the chip leader, approximately 18 players remain. The stacks at my table range from 2K to 21K. The table has been generally tight, and I have played aggressively to take advantage. I just suffered a 6K hit a few hands back.

I get K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the CO and it's folded to me. I raise to 800 and the BB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my first question is: why min raise from the CO with what is basically a blind steal? Have min raises been working before?

The main problem with the min raise is that the BB is getting 3.5:1 on the call, and you really get no information about his holding when he calls.

[ QUOTE ]
BB has the 21K stack. Flop comes K96 with one club. The BB checks, and here is my first decision point. I decide that the flop is pretty harmless and slowplaying headsup is the best way to get lots of chips here, and so I check. Agree/disagree?

Turn is the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. BB checks, and I am not willing to check again, if he has nothing so be it. I bet 2500. BB check/raises to 6000. I have 3 options here, fold, call, push. Folding seems awful, especially given the club draw. Calling and pushing are close to me. I think that the check behind on the flop is going to induce this type of betting from several hands that I beat. If I am beat right now, I should have 7-9 outs at minimum, and as many as 13. Thoughts? If you advocate a call, what is your line on a blank river and he checks? He pushes? Obviously on a K, 9 or club, I'm getting the $$ in the middle.


[/ QUOTE ]

What is your goal in slowplaying? To get your opponent to commit lots of chips when he is behind. You succeed beautifully and then question whether you should pull the trigger. Since your opponent now seems committed to the pot, go ahead and jam. If you're beat you have lots of outs. I'd be surprised if you don't have the best hand here.

Personally, I would not slowplay this flop for multiple reasons: 1) since I was the preflop aggressor and I'm betting most flops when it's checked to me, I definately want to bet when I flop good to protect the more common occurances when I miss. 2) 2 pair is usually not strong enough to slow play, especially when there are a lot of possible str8 type cards that can come on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]

HAND II

I pick up TT UTG and raise to 10K. UTG+1 (the other big stack) calls. Everyone else folds. Flop is 776 rainbow. Here was my thought process, feel free to deconstruct as needed. I almost surely have the best hand. JJ-AA would likely reraise, esp vs the other big stack with 5 players yet to act. The hands I'm beat by right now are 77, 66, and maybe A7, but I think this player would fold here 75% of the time with A7 suited.

Here were my options as I saw them. 1) Bet 10-15K. If I do this, what is my reaction to a coldcall? A push? 2) Check, with the intention of raising. This seemed to be the best way to get money in the pot with what almost surely is the best hand right now. If he pushes, this just clarifies that I have the best hand, and I should call, yes? 3) Open push. This has the detriment of getting no more $$ from hands like AK or AQ, but may possibly induce a fold from JJ and maybe (but probably not) QQ. Slight chance of call from 88 or 99.

I ultimately decided to checkraise. I check, he bets 10K, I push. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

With a big stack, I play cautiously against other big stacks, especially on the bubble. While he can hurt you, you can keep him from getting a payday too. Even though you have a better understanding of your opponents than I do, I don't think you can be so sure you have the best hand here.

The main problem is that you really don't know for sure where you are (you could be anywhere from a huge favorite to a huge dog). I like to bet in these situations to help define them a little. I'd bet around 15K and let that be the last money I put in the pot without a T on the turn or river. After betting, a raise by him says he's prepared to go broke on the bubble, which is a pretty strong signal that we are probably beat.

After the fact, the easiest way to find the correct play here is to give him a range and run the numbers in pokerstove. That should clarify things greatly.

-Oz-

[Black Aces 518]

Thanks for the thoughts. The 800 was a typo. As I was putting the hand down, I thought it was 100-200. I consulted my notes, and it was 200-400. I raised 4xBB, so 1600 in actuality. I never make minraises, at least not until the end of the tourney where the amount of the raise with relation to stack size is more determinative for my opponents in determining their action than the pot odds.

[Erik Blazynski]

Great post BTW... I love to think about scenarios like this.

I don't like your slow playing of this first hand, a nice pot sized bet right there, you have top 2 pair. I'll assume that the K and 9 on board were not suited. But I have been beat so many times slow playing top 2, that I never think it is the correct play, unless were heads up. As the other poster pointed out, you are getting the action that you were looking for when you slow played. So when he check raises here, you've got to push back, isn't that why you are at this place in the hand?

2nd hand, First question, you are the chip leader and your on the bubble, do you need to play the hand.
Second question, what could he have? If he had QQ, KK, AA, would he have played any differently? I have seen many people call a raise with any of those hands. After he calls your raise I think you just simply need to be done with the hand. If you detach from the greed and the emotion, and simply look at standing in the tournament, you will likely agree. Some people say that I am too conservative, but objectively you need to get away from the hand.

-Erik

[Black Aces 518]

Thanks for the response.

Are you suggesting an open-fold with TT? I don't think I can do that, much less 7 handed. The line advocated above of betting 15K on the flop and then being done on a call or raise is what I would have done on a flop of one overcard. Check-fold with an overpair feels pretty heinous, but that's why I'm asking, to see what everyone thinks.

[-Oz-]

[ QUOTE ]
The line advocated above of betting 15K on the flop and then being done on a call or raise is what I would have done on a flop of one overcard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about the whole hand:

Aggressive big stack (you) raises UTG --> implies he has a reasonable to good hand, given his position.

2nd stack UTG+1 calls big stack, putting himself into position to get knocked out of tourney --> implies pretty good hand

Flop comes and big stack makes a continuation bet --> implies nothing special, but putting 2nd stack to the test

2nd stack then has 2 options (other than conceding the pot): 1) raise, thereby committing himself and passing the test the big stack just put to him, or
2) calling, making a murky situation even murkier for the big stack

In either of these cases, I think it is a mistake for the big stack to commit more chips to this pot. If the 2nd stack jams with 99 and forces a lay down, so be it. That's the price you pay for the option of getting away from a losing situation. You still have a good stack and a great chance to go deep into the money.

The problem with going for the check-raise is twofold: 1) It gets you committed to the pot when you have the worst hand, and 2) you take an (unneccesary) chance of giving overcards a free turn card. Thisis balanced against the (small) chance that the 2nd stack will lay down a better hand. Not worth it in my judgement.

Overall, I still don't think your position is as clear as you seem to be making it out to be.

-Oz-

[Black Aces 518]

I'm starting to agree with you on the 15K bet. The c/r was likely overkill. The extra 10K chips is not worth the risk of the free card or committing myself to the hand without any real info. What I meant is that, at that time, after the call and before the fllop, my plan for the hand was to c/r a zero overcard flop, bet 15K on a one overcard flop and likely shut down on a 2 or 3 overcard flop.

If he'd called from the button or BB, I would be more concerned with an overpair. I just didn't think he'd cold call from UTG+2 with 5 players still to act and the only covering stack already in. This may or may not be a reasonable assumption. I certainly would have reraised QQ, KK or AA in his spot, and sometimes JJ. I'm not looking to play a giant pot OOP with a big pair when I can bust on the bubble from 2nd place chipstack.

[Black Aces 518]

I'll post results, and hopefully can get a couple more comments on my thinking in these hands.

In Hand I, villain had 10-8 for the turned free gutshot. I was lucky enough to hit one of my 13 outs, the J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to win.

In Hand II, villain called with AA. D'oh. Turn came 9, so I had 6 river outs, but missed, and was crippled. I ended up bubbling.

I still think the play of Hand I was correct, except maybe a small flop bet.

In Hand II, I think I should have led out and gotten very cautious when meeting resistance, rather than c/ring all in.

[TomHimself]

No way I am folding TT there

[Black Aces 518]

TomHimself - you would call if you lead out 15K on the flop and the other guy pushes? What if he pushes preflop?