I think we fear it can all go away...

coffeecrazy1 · #1 07-12-2005, 02:33 PM

SomethingClever's post about being a losing player has gotten me thinking. I have noticed that whenever I move into a downswing, I find myself questioning my entire poker existence. Somehow, being a victim of variance makes me think that all the work, reading, and discovery I have done has been for naught. I know that I'm not alone on this one, so I wonder: why is it we think that way? What causes us to doubt everything we do simply because of the runs of cards?

BarronVangorToth · #2 07-12-2005, 02:37 PM

Hopefully you have read Dr. Al's "Psychology of Poker" - if you have, read it again, if you haven't, do so. There is specific advice against what you are thinking ... but the general principles will be of much help as well.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

coffeecrazy1 · #3 07-12-2005, 02:40 PM

It's on my list already...just don't have a whole lot of money at this point in time(payday on Friday) [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

hurlyburly · #4 07-12-2005, 02:58 PM

We all look a little bit harder at our games, and recognize the mistakes a bit easier, when we're running poorly. No one ever attributes luck to the positive sessions, or counts hands won despite mistakes as leaky play when they run hot.

If you feel brilliant when you're winning (pretty hard to avoid), how are you supposed to feel when losing?

revots33 · #5 07-12-2005, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why is it we think that way? What causes us to doubt everything we do simply because of the runs of cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's easy, at least for me. I know variance can work both ways, so I wonder... am I a lousy player who's just been lucky, or a good player who's currently running unlucky?

I'd imagine it's kind of like what a career .300 hitter must feel like when he's mired in a 2-for-41 batting slump. The longer the slump drags on, the easier it is to think that it's not just a slump, but you've just forgotten how to hit.

TaoTe · #6 07-12-2005, 05:03 PM

That's a really great question.

I believe it has something to do with the psychological attachment from our self and the cards because poker players spend so much time, effort, and money invested in a deck of cards some may feel as though their self-worth is directly related to the fall of those cards. Gambling can create a dependence on unknown variables, when those variables are positive one's self-image is high because of a sense of accomplisment and success, but when variance swings toward negative the dependence on uncontrollable events is often internalized through pain, which in turn often manifests itself into external reactions such as anger and frustration or blaiming the cards. This is just an outpouring of the internal pain that a bad run of cards can generate because of high expectation and dependence on success to fulfill their needs of self-worth. To be able to distance oneself from bad luck or negative variance is, to paraphrase Aristotle, the actualization of one's self (as a gambler).

Variance happens at all levels of play and to all players. It is the nature of the beast, the part of the game that keeps live ones continuing to play with the odds stacked against them. To seperate one's self, selfworth, and one's being, from a silly (albeit the greatest) game of cards, is the highest accomplisment a card player can hope to achieve, aside from winning the Main Event of the World Series of Poker that is.

SNOWBALL138 · #7 07-12-2005, 11:14 PM

Great post! This is an interesting topic, and I was discussing it with my therapist this morning.

I got hit by the wrath of god lastnight at limit hold em. 2 pair vs. set. Set vs. straight, straight vs flush, everyone folds to my aces, my kings run into aces, my aces get beaten by kings, and after that beaten by queens etc, etc, etc, etc yada yada yada nothing you haven't seen before.

Even though I took an unholy, evil loss lastnight, my therapist thinks that what really bugs me is the idea of not playing well. I think he's totally correct. The reality is that even with that loss, I am still well in the black just counting the 3 days b4 it.

All those beats in a row, or failed high % moves we make going bad in a row make us wonder how we ever won in the first place. Lastnight, I got my flopped set beaten one time by a runner runner gutshot 1 card str8. My very next set also lost to a 1 card straight.
When things like this are all happening at once we feel like it could go on forever.

Anyway, no one should care about my 1 bad night, and I don't want or deserve anyone's sympathy for losing (I am in the black, and well B-Rolled). If you guys shouldn't care about my bad night, then why should I?

I just wanted to say that its hard to not lose your confidence when you identify winning with your ego.
This is a problem a lot of people have.
Sorry if this came off like a bad beat post.

Anyway, best of luck keeping your chin-up in the downtimes.

Nigel · #8 07-12-2005, 11:53 PM

Good post Tao.

William Wilson · #9 07-13-2005, 02:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
... its hard to not lose your confidence when you identify winning with your ego.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for putting that in words. I feel that could be my biggest problem in poker at the moment. However, "ego" could perhaps be expanded into "self worth," although that is a bit of an exaggeration.

TheCroShow · #10 07-13-2005, 06:02 AM

aye, i ran into the variance monster last week. without exagerration i lost to set vs set, AA vs 89o, KK vs JJ (nice turn sir! =p), nut flush to full house, etc etc etc. hands that i could not get away from, and i would not call them "bad beats" because the hands my opponents had were strong and maybe caught a little luck but that is part of the game.

took a week off due to a move, gonna get back on the horse sometime this week and give it another go. during those few sessions i suffered a 90ish BB hit to my online bankroll..i'm told 100 BB downswings are common so i'll keep that in mind as i play.