Learning hold em for a total beginner

[krimson]

More simple math.

4bb/100 at .5/1 (or $4/100 hands) is an attainable win rate.

4-tabling you can play approximately 250 hands/hr, so our hourly win rate increases to (250/100)x$4 = $10 / hr.

This is better than minimum wage in the USA i'm assuming? Tack on some bonuswhoring for anywhere between $5-$30/hr, and you have some very profitable micro-limit poker.

p.s. Drug dealing is -EV. The easy access to drugs leads to increased use, meaning your spending more of your profits than you expect, tack on getting ripped off and running the risk of being arrested, etc. I'm not sure how you can suggest this is a better idea than learning to play poker.

[Erik Blazynski]

Are you the cruise director? Why is it your responsibility to find his career/hobby? If he is really interested in poker he will figure out how to learn the game just as you did. Spoon feeding him will only prolong his entrance into his drug career. Without an intense passion for the game, he will not be a winning player.

BTW I make on average 8BB/hr at foxwoods playing $4/$8 holdem. So don't beleive that other post. BTW it took 2 years to figure out how to make that kind of money and I couldn't teach you how to do it if I wanted to.

-Blazman

[shermn27]

[ QUOTE ]
More simple math.

4bb/100 at .5/1 (or $4/100 hands) is an attainable win rate.

4-tabling you can play approximately 250 hands/hr, so our hourly win rate increases to (250/100)x$4 = $10 / hr.

This is better than minimum wage in the USA i'm assuming? Tack on some bonuswhoring for anywhere between $5-$30/hr, and you have some very profitable micro-limit poker.

p.s. Drug dealing is -EV. The easy access to drugs leads to increased use, meaning your spending more of your profits than you expect, tack on getting ripped off and running the risk of being arrested, etc. I'm not sure how you can suggest this is a better idea than learning to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[SNOWBALL138]

You forgot about rakeback [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[starbits]

Here a post from a total novice, never played a single hand on line or in a casino. Didn't have anyone to teach me so bought a couple books, theory of Poker (good book working through it a second time) and Hold'em Poker for advanced players (not really what I needed). Realized I couldn't learn much with out playing so instead of going online I downloaded Poker Academy Pro. It is a more controlled environment. I can play a couple hundred hands, get my butt whipped, go back to the books and find what I was doing wrong and go back to the same table and players and play again. At the end of 1000 hands (always back to +$ so far) change the situation and learn something new. I just finished reading SSHE (learned a lot) and have SS2 waiting on the night stand. Lots of study and practice ahead before I join the land of take or be taken. Then we will see if I really learned anything at all.
Probably not the route most would take, but a different option than had been posted here.

Eric

[magates]

[ QUOTE ]
Think simple math. If you believe the statistics on general winners in poker, 1-2BB an hour at .5/1 is $1-2 an hour.. who can live off that? Now subtract whatever edge you had as a solid player, due to the variance induced by 4-5 calling stations seeing every river. You aren't left with any money

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you actually saying that playing vs. bad players will DECREASE your win rate?

[LoosenUp]

[ QUOTE ]
I might normally post something witty and elaborate, but I'm getting tired and this is going to be one of my last posts for today...

1) Are you a winning hold'em player?

I find it hard to believe- if you're trying to set your friend up playing those limits- you would know there's no point playing those limits for him at all... not for $ or practice.

If you are- I would have thought you'd have him start playing at a limit that is not only beatable, but worthwhile.

2) There is a rule, that goes back many years before anyone alive was born... the gist of it is "What a man does for a living is none of my business."

You should repeat that to yourself 3-4 times until you are convinced that it is true.

3) Mathematics. Selling drugs for him is not only +EV while poker is -EV in the status quo, it's greater by an infinite margin... he only stands to profit.

Sure he could get hauled away by the DEA or whoever else, but that's unlikely... like getting kicked out of a casino for swearing.

My personal, unprofessional, unnofficial, but 100% real and pragmatic analysis:

It's nice you want to teach him poker, that's fine.. keep doing it.
Those limits are a joke.
He should have some other income/money/bankroll... if it's dealing drugs, then it's dealing drugs... or something else.

Finally, I don't like the way you assume he will be a losing player initially, if you are to teach him. This implies either he is stupid, you are a bad teacher, or you don't know what to teach him. If you're going to take it upon yourself to derail his intended course and teach him poker, you better know what you're doing- and he better win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish you did post something witty and elaborate.

" you would know there's no point playing those limits for him at all... not for $ or practice."

This makes me wonder if your a winning player. Don't need to prove it and I don't care.

Those stakes are ideal for building a solid foundation. Not to mention starting his bankroll. Everytime I go broke I start there and build up. I have a feeling you have B&M low stakes experience. They are much more solid games online.

Another poster mention something along the lines of your friend being the right type of person for poker. This is very important. He needs to be a thinker and have the right termperment for the game or forget it. You may want to consider that before you encourage your friend into a poker career.

To me, if you do go ahead w/ this, it sounds like you got a great Curriculum set up for him. Good Luck.

[xniNja]

Yes, that is precisely what I'm saying, to a degree. There are many levels of "bad players" in Hold'Em. What I'm talking about is the decreased likelihood of say hand X holding up in a multi-way pot. This same hand X, played the same way will win say 90% of the time in 20-40 , but in say a loose $1-2 game or such, the winrate drops to 30-40%. Secondly, I'm also talking about developing bad habits. In loose micro-limit games, you often- correctly have drawing odds for marginal hands and various connectors- these hands empirically tend to lose money in the low limits themselves, but more importantly (if you're trying to break into a higher game) many players don't realize the real relative values of starting hands and how to play them accordingly.

As for living off $8/hr... by 4 tabling micro limits... If you can do it, fine. I don't consider that a career, profession, or living- maybe a job. I think you can get a $10/hr job with no formal education whatsoever. If he was trying to supplement income from 2-3 jobs, he must need money- and $8/hr is pretty measely.

-xN

[magates]

By win rate I was referring to bb/100. It may be true that a given hand will lose more often vs. multiple opponents who incorrectly call to the river, but those losses are more than made up for by the extra bets you win when they don't suck out. Bad players increase your winnings, if you disagree, well . . . .

As to your other statements, if you are making correct decisions, those decisions are, by definition, +ev long term. How is making +ev decisions a bad habit to get into? Isn't that what winning poker is all about?

Would you recommend a beginner sit down to learn at 10/20 tables? That's a ridiculous option for most people without a deep and expendible starting bankroll.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
Think simple math. If you believe the statistics on general winners in poker, 1-2BB an hour at .5/1 is $1-2 an hour.. who can live off that? Now subtract whatever edge you had as a solid player, due to the variance induced by 4-5 calling stations seeing every river. You aren't left with any money, or any real understanding of how the game works... at any reasonable level. You can call it dogma, but I'll admit I didn't understand most of what I'm talking about until I started playing 10-20 and 20-40.

If you want me to state it more explicitly; In my opinion, the "value" gained from learning to beat super-loose games (like .01/.02 or higher) is not only negligible, it's counterproductive in building a foundation for winning money at poker... assuming you live in America where $1-2 an hour can be found in my couch.

I stand by my decree, if you aim to earn a *living* or make a *profession* out of poker... you are hurting yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is looking for a supplement for his income, not to live off it.

I have made $1000 in a few months playing .50/1 and a few sit and go tourney's. If you think that that is not a lot of money then fine but it has been a nice supplement.

I think that the most important point is that no one who has never played poker should rely on it for income when there is the potenital for just digging a deeper hole in the short term. If your friend wants to learn to play poker with the eventual goal of making some money on the side that is one thing. However, in the near term he should not expect to be a consistant winner. Since he doesnt seem to be all that realistic (he is only thinking of a quick fix like drugs or poker) I would say the following.

1) Get another job and work 20 more hours/week.
2) Learn to play poker with free time as an investment in the future using job as investment in bankroll and as supplemental income. (50%:50%)
3) Win at low limit poker.
4) Quit job and play poker as supplemental income.

BTW. I think that teaching your friend to play is a noble thing to do. It is an investment of your time which is obviouslly not worthless. I just think that he may have an unrealistic idea about how much work and time it takes. If he is not willing to work a second job, why would he be willing to waste a lot of time infront of a computer?

Greg