How Often Do You Reraise With Queens? - Page 3

zaxx19 · #21 06-18-2005, 10:34 PM

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Reading this and your other post, it seems like you're playing scared poker. Not reraising the third best hand in the game and building a pot is a crime imo.

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In the larger live games I play in now (2-5 usually with ~ 500 in front of me) I couldnt imagine not reraising with QQ and doing so liberally.

-Skeme- · #22 06-18-2005, 11:25 PM

I assure you, my reason for not reraising wasn't due to me being scared.

BZ_Zorro · #23 06-19-2005, 12:12 AM

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I assure you, my reason for not reraising wasn't due to me being scared.

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I have respect for your game skeme, but what was your reason? It's not like you were heads up or someone was representing AA/KK.

This is why you should raise:

- You are a strong favorite to win the pot. You should always try to get as much money in as possible when you have the single best hand.
- You gain information
- You push out a marginal hand or two (makes post flop life OOP far easier). Even if you don't push anyone out, you're charging them to draw out on your hand, which is always correct.
- You can play with confidence on the flop, and lay down the hand far easier if you get action.
- Your raise % goes up.

Why you shouldn't raise:

-An A or K might flop
-You don't like to lead out money into a big pot.

FreakDaddy · #24 06-19-2005, 12:56 AM

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I know you know this, but your going to justify your play somehow and then not take any criticism, so I'm probably wasting my time again.

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I've never done this. If you think you're wasting your time in my threads then don't bother to respond.

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I typically do ignore them, and I will from now on. If you really believe the above statement, then you are more diluted than I thought.

Besides, no matter what people say in this thread, you're going to justify the hand you played and take little, if any criticism with and level of objectivity. You asked a question, people responded, and you still think not re-raising is good with this hand. Why ask the question if you are convinced of the answer already? Are the arguments not compelling enough? I doubt it.

Too bad, because I think you're a good player, but I've been miffed as to why you ask questions when you already know the correct play.

BZ_Zorro · #25 06-19-2005, 12:56 AM

Here's why it's fundamentally sound to always raise/reraise QQ preflop unless signs are going off for AA or KK.

These results are only if you see the river. The chance of having the best hand on the flop is much higher.

Qd Qh 45.78
4d 4h 18.27
As Kd 35.56

Qd Qh 30.72
Ks Js 11.16
9c 8c 21.99
4d 4h 15.20
As Kd 20.26

Qd Qh 55.69
As Jd 23.81
Tc 9c 20.28

Qd Qh 42.50
As Kd 36.28
Tc 9c 20.99

You have the single best hand in every situation. Over the long term not raising QQ is -EV.

-Skeme- · #26 06-19-2005, 02:38 AM

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I have respect for your game skeme, but what was your reason? It's not like you were heads up or someone was representing AA/KK.

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I just don't always consider it a reraising hand. This is the ideal spot to do it in, though. It's not a huge raise and I shouldn't be willing to take flops multiway with Queens.

Believe it or not, the reasons you posted I already knew, lol. I guess I just called for no real good reason. I agree with your reasons, a raise would've defenitely been better.

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I typically do ignore them, and I will from now on. If you really believe the above statement, then you are more diluted than I thought.

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This is fine, none of your replies have ever helped me. In fact, they annoy me. It's frustrating when I repeatedly tell you that I'm not disregarding your advice as wrong or stupid. I also don't post hands where I'm sure my play is the best. Obviously I have my doubts, that's why I'm posting it in the first place. But if someone posts a different line, which I see as worse than my original line, of course I'll say so. When people give replies to my threads, I give thorough responses and hammer out many questions in response to determine the best possible solution to my query. That's the reason why my threads receive so many replies, I like to keep the discussion going to further my understanding of the specific hand.

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Besides, no matter what people say in this thread, you're going to justify the hand you played and take little, if any criticism with and level of objectivity.

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I have never done this and never will. If someone's advice seems wrong I will defenitely challenge it. Don't confuse my willingness to achieve the BEST course of action in a hand with stubborness.

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You asked a question, people responded, and you still think not re-raising is good with this hand.

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When have I ever said, "No, reraising here isn't good." Go look. I haven't. The closest I've come to this asinine statement was, "Makes sense, but reraising with Queens every time isn't something I'm going to do." And that statement is clearly nowhere near, "Uh, whatever. I still think reraising here is wrong."

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Why ask the question if you are convinced of the answer already? Are the arguments not compelling enough? I doubt it.

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Once again I do not do this.

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I've been miffed as to why you ask questions when you already know the correct play.

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See above.

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Over the long term not raising QQ is -EV.

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I assume you mean reraise, right? I always raise Queens, just not always reraise with them. I would say I reraise with Queens maybe 60% of the time, maybe a little less.

-----
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed)

UTG ($49.80)
UTG+1 ($3.70)
MP1 ($35.15)
MP2 ($60.80)
MP3 ($58.50)
Hero ($100.85)
Button ($82.20)
SB ($124.70)
BB ($215.95)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, BB calls $7, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $5.

Flop: ($25.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets $2, Hero raises to $20, BB raises to $38, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $92.85, BB calls $54.85.

Turn: ($213.20) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($213.20) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $213.20

Results in white below: 
BB has Jh Jd (three of a kind, jacks).
Hero has Qc Qs (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $213.20. 
-----

FreakDaddy · #27 06-19-2005, 03:05 AM

You did respond by saying that you didn't feel you should have re-raised, or something to that effect, but I'm not going to waste my time looking for the post.

We have different styles of play. You like to play weak/tight and make sophisticated plays against online small stakes players that are mostly unaware, I like to play LAG. If you don't want to open up your game, or you think my posts are annoying, I promise this is my last response.

I've tried to point out to you that you're playing lines that are going to lose you BB's, but you don't want to see it. When I play a 5/2 or higher live game, I play a lot of lines similar to you, but not at 100NL online. It's pointless. I would bet I have more poker experience than you, but you don't seem to listen to what I or others have to say. That's fine, good luck with your poker growth.

BZ_Zorro · #28 06-19-2005, 03:06 AM

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Believe it or not, the reasons you posted I already knew, lol.

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[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Of course, like I said earlier you know the rest. I sometimes post to clarify my own thoughts, maybe you/someone else gets something out of it too. But I still can't find any legitimate reason for not reraising here other than 'I didn't feel like it'.

I'm always reraising with QQ for the reasons listed, unless I suspect there's AA or KK out there.

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BB has Jh Jd (three of a kind, jacks).
Hero has Qc Qs (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $213.20.

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Sweet, I just stacked a guy in exactly the same way with KKK vs JJJ. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

FreakDaddy · #29 06-19-2005, 03:09 AM

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You have the single best hand in every situation. Over the long term not raising QQ is -EV.

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Good luck getting him to listen to you. I'm saving my breath from now on personally. He's a good player, but stubborn as hell.

dibbs · #30 06-19-2005, 03:40 AM

Been thinking about reraising with QQ lately, interesting you posted this. A minraise here I really think you have to pop it up, I really hate raising OOP as well, but minraises like this let too many wierd little connecting hands in that you want out, and a lot of bad players minraise AA/KK, if he repops you its a pretty easy bounce. What if he calls you and lets you hang yourself on a J high flop? Stuff happens I guess.

Against a reasonable raise, I smoothcall here and feel out a flop. I can't beleive AA checked this here, awful IMO. Flop on I like how you played this, turn plays itself. I'd lead but I'm liking the sound of your checkraise scheme.

On a semi related topic, do you reraise AK from the blinds? If there are limpers, do you raise it here?