Buying the button with TT

[ QUOTE ]
preflop i 3 bet if i can limit the field, here you can not. calling is best. if the players are tight a fold can be correct, but in today's games that seems less and less true. and if you expect 5, then pocket pairs lower then tt should be played here too.

i think the 3 bet pre here has neg ev, but nice runner runner!

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this line of thinking, I would not 3 bet with TT in this situation, I am interested in the arguments for 3 betting preflop in this particular situation.

[ QUOTE ]
wow. i thought this was just incredibly standard preflop play. maybe i'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
3 betting TT is not standard by any means in my opinion.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

3 betting TT is not standard by any means in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes it is; it's textbook in, among other places, Small Stakes Hold 'em.

The only place that is questionable is the turn; barring metagame / image considerations, this was on the fold side of things.

That is where it's close decision; it's not close pre-flop.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[amulet]

barron, i like your writing and your posts, however, as i stated in my post above:

"preflop i 3 bet if i can limit the field, here you can not. calling is best. if the players are tight a fold can be correct, but in today's games that seems less and less true. and if you expect 5, then pocket pairs lower then tt should be played here too.

i think the 3 bet pre here has neg ev, but nice runner runner!"

------------------------------------

everything is game dependent, you can not just say ssh says to reraise.

the purpose of your reraise here would be to either to limit the field or to get $ in with the best hand. you certainly can not limit the field by the time this comes to you, and you often do not have the best hand. let's do a little math. the UTG is TAG, so we can say he would raise with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT AK, AQ, there are 32 possible ak and aq combos, and 30 pair combos (less 3 because the poster has TT). almost even. two cold callers, who are ok players. i can not see TT having positive ev here.

[lil feller]

Amulet, we've had some interesting conversation over the last week or so, but I think in this example you're applying your UTG raising standards to the PFR. He could also very easily have KQs, KQo, 77, 88, and 99. Adding those hands make it far more likely that hero is ahead of the PFR.

We KNOW we're ahead of both cold callers, as JJ+ is certainly 3betting. One thing the OP left out is how tight the blinds are, but if we can get even one of them to fold an over 3 betting is definately the way to go.

Its not like we have 66 here and must hit a set to improve. Its also likely that a lot of our opponents are sharing cards or that they have smaller pocket pairs, greatly increasing our preflop equity.

lf

[amulet]

given what we know of the utg, i think you are giving him way too wide a range of hands. 99 maybe, kqs maybe, but i doubt the others. and if there were fewer opponents already in i reraise to force the blinds out, however, too many are already in to 3 bet in my opinion.

and i have also enjoyed our discussions over the past weeks,.

[pokerkai]

[ QUOTE ]
wow. i thought this was just incredibly standard preflop play. maybe i'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero can call with 8 outs in a reasonable sized pot for two bets for the same reason Barron Vangor Toth can call 2 cold with an inside straight draw on the turn in a reasonable sized pot: 3 betting preflop with all holdings = +EV!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

3 betting TT is not standard by any means in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes it is; it's textbook in, among other places, Small Stakes Hold 'em.

The only place that is questionable is the turn; barring metagame / image considerations, this was on the fold side of things.

That is where it's close decision; it's not close pre-flop.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]
Barron, telling me that something is in smallstakes isnt going to convince me that 3betting TT is standard. Like you, I have read all the books multiple times so it isnt necessary for you to quote any paragraph for me. When I have TT and its been raised in front of me there are times I will fold it, times I will call it, and times I will reraise with it depending on what I want to accomplish and who I am up against. TT is a highly situational hand. I know in general that all hands are situational. But TT is more situational than most hands in my opinion. I believe when Ed Miller wrote smallstakes and gave his preflop guidelines, he wasnt intending for anyone to strictly adhere to them. They are still just a guide, and there are many times it will be correct to deviate from that guide, especially with a hand like TT

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero can call with 8 outs in a reasonable sized pot for two bets for the same reason Barron Vangor Toth can call 2 cold with an inside straight draw on the turn in a reasonable sized pot: 3 betting preflop with all holdings = +EV!

[/ QUOTE ]


In the September "On the Edge" that I wrote, I had the odds to make the call, but just barely; in this situation, you don't have the odds, but it's likewise just barely.

My saying you don't have the odds, if anything, should be REALLY indicative as some say that I overestimate the odds in a situation.

While on paper calling for the gutshot seems worse than for the open-ender, the critical difference is one of the main (and often missed) points of Small Stakes Hold 'em:

You're not taking into account the size of the pot. In my situation, the pot was exponentionally bigger - hence, it was correct.

Here, it's small, AND you're not drawing to the nuts AND you could be drawing to the chop as well in some scenarios.

Interesting comparison ... but it proves my point.

For reference, the OP even stated that he believes now that the odds may not have been there.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com