KK on a AJ6 flop against a big stack

FishInAPhoneBooth · #1 10-05-2005, 12:47 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (10 handed) converter

SB (t17697)
BB (t2108)
<>< (t4416)
UTG+1 (t11434)
UTG+2 (t6409)
MP1 (t7762)
MP2 (t3487)
MP3 (t9265)
CO (t16023)
Button (t7796)

Preflop: <>< is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<>< raises to t500, 5 folds, CO calls t500, 2 folds, BB calls t300.

Flop: (t1600) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, <>< bets t425

I feel like I cost myself 400 extra chips with 0% chance of winning the pot. Is the best way to handle this situation? Is a simple check followed by a fold optimal? I really had no relevant reads.

Blindcurve · #2 10-05-2005, 01:11 AM

Yeah. Good question. I did the same thing in the 40K Guarantee earlier this evening. I was kicking myself for continuing. Granted, I only had one opponent, but I put him on an ace, and I couldn't really afford to fire a second barrel. Check/fold seems like a better idea.

arcticfox · #3 10-05-2005, 05:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Good question. I did the same thing in the 40K Guarantee earlier this evening. I was kicking myself for continuing. Granted, I only had one opponent, but I put him on an ace, and I couldn't really afford to fire a second barrel. Check/fold seems like a better idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/fold is a terrible idea, you are the pre flop raiser, your opponents probably fear you have AK here, just because you have 2 callers does not guarantee one of them has the ace. I'd bet half the pot, the small bet tells your opponent you don't have an ace, if he has a weak ace he is a hard position. If you are raised you can safely fold. If CO has JTs and is checked to twice he is going to bet if you check but probably fold if you bet.

#4 10-05-2005, 07:43 AM

I had almost an identical situation yesterday. I was on the button with JJ and raised 4BB, UTG called and the flop was A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG bet 1/4 of the pot and i raised him that amount representing a good hand that wants more money in the pot, he called and the turn was a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I feared he had an Ace or a King so I was cautious with betting as any K or A had me beaten. The river was a blank and this time he checked to me. I was limping on two thoughts 1) he had a made hand and was luring me into making a bet or 2) he missed his straight draw. I checked and he showed me T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

But as said you can't always expect them to have an A...

FishInAPhoneBooth · #5 10-05-2005, 11:52 AM

But betting half the pot is going to leave me cripled if I fold.

fnurt · #6 10-05-2005, 12:19 PM

Crippled? You will have something like 15 big blinds left.

tshak · #7 10-05-2005, 12:34 PM

You have second pair with two backdoor draws and you were the preflop raiser. You must continue here without any other reads. I agree that having two players at the flop makes this decision a bit tough. I think we can begin by improving our preflop play. While we want action with KK, we only have an M of about 15. In general I like to get KK heads up - even moreso when I'm nearing shortstack territory. Your raise of 2.5x BB is too small. With this chip stack I'm looking for a 5-6xBB raise. If my opponents are loose and call preflop raises with weak aces, make them pay for it. If my opponents have smaller pairs and want to try and spike a set to break you, make them pay for it.

When a draw heavy board with an Ace comes, in order to represent the Ace I think we need to "protect" our hand by betting closer to 2/3rds-3/4th pot. The problem with this line is that now we've got half of our chips in the middle (assuming a 5-6xBB preflop raise, in the 2.5xBB sense this is a much easier line), and we're practically pot committed. We need to ask ourselves what this type of bet can accomplish:

- It defines our hand (which may be the best) and protects against a draw heavy board. This flop could have missed both opponents. CO has a lot of chips and is in position and may be willing to gamble with hands like JTs and mid pairs, and the BB was getting over 4:1 and has a very wide range.

- If our opponent(s) got lucky and hit their 5:1 Ace, are they capable of laying down a Q or weaker kicker here? If so this bet may allow them to incorrectly pass.

The flop line I've suggested may be a bit too aggressive for your stack size, but I think that check/folding KK with one or two opponents in this situation is too weak/tight.

FishInAPhoneBooth · #8 10-05-2005, 12:49 PM

I should have mentioned blinds go up in 3 minutes, so I will have 8 bb.

fnurt · #9 10-05-2005, 02:14 PM

That's still not exactly crippled. A half-pot bet here will pick up the pot enough to be worth it.

FishInAPhoneBooth · #10 10-05-2005, 02:48 PM

Thank you for the advice I really appreciate it. I will implement your line the next time I am in said situation. As the hand played out:

CO raises to t850, BB folds, <>< ???

That seemed like a really weak bet to me, is pushing over the top spewing or a valid option?