All-in vs Fold

John_Manley · #1 12-02-2003, 10:28 AM

Recently, I have had a problem with being knocked out of tournaments fairly early with good hands. For instance in the 200K Party Poker NL tournament on Sunday I was able to limp in on the miniblind with 10-J clubs. Flop was 89 clubs plus Jhearts. I had 4 flush/straight plus top pair combo and was a against 4 oppponents. I made a 200 chip bet and was called by one person. Turn card was a 4 of clubs. This gave me a flush and I then made another 150 chip bet and was then raised to all-in. What do you do?

Next example, 3rd hand of 100 minitournament on Party Poker. UTG bets 50, he is then raised to 200 by the button who is known to pull this stunt. I go all-in with KK. Right or wrong move. The main question is this. Since I believe that I am a better poker player than most of my oppoents at the table, am I subjecting myself to early elimination from tournaments, with what I suspect the best hand at the time but definitely not the nut. I would appreciate your comments and thoughtful crtisism.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #2 12-02-2003, 11:25 AM

hand 2 looks fine.

I'd like more info on hand 1 (# of limpers, stack sizes, blinds, pot size, etc.) to be sure, but you have a made flush on a non-paired board, seems OK to call unless your opponent is so tight he wouldn't make this play with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] x or a set.

John_Manley · #3 12-02-2003, 12:25 PM

On the first hand I had hit my J high flush and then made a fairly sizable bet which I suspect my oppoent thought I was bluffing. My opponent had JQ. He goes all-in even though he the flush was possibly present after my big bet. I called him and of course he had the Q of clubs and I'm out. Obviously this is a bad beat and I accept this however I have had a string of these little occurence happen such as me going in with KK in the second example and my oppoent calls with A-5 suited after I go all-in. Of course he beats me. My father-in-law who is an ultraconservative player but who does do well in tournament says that no matter what your preflop cards are that going all-in before the flop is putting me at too high of a risk of early elimination. I don't know. He may have a point. What do you think.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #4 12-02-2003, 12:40 PM

In general, your father-in-law is correct. However, with AA or KK, you really can't lay those hands down to any size raise or reraise. Do you really want to just call and try to play it like it's a limit game and give your opponent a chance to either draw out on you or bluff you off your chips? If you fold the 2nd best hand in poker to a raise or reraise, what hands can you play?

At some point in a NL tournament you have to put your stack at risk or you'll never win. KK is never just a coinflip, and is only behind one hand. Unless I'm in a bubble situation, if a pot-size reraise means I have more than 1/3 of my chips in the pot, they're all going into the middle with KK.

In the first hand it sounds like he hit a 4-1 shot to beat you. Ask yourself this. If you can't call that all-in in the flush hand, why did you play those cards to begin with?

You made the right play both times.

Ignatius · #5 12-02-2003, 01:18 PM

> I subjecting myself to early elimination from tournaments, with what I suspect the best hand at the time
.
I think this "early elimination" argument is widely overestimated and, anyway, it only applies to rare events i.e. when the number of tourneys you can play is limited (such as a weekly tourney in your local cardroom). For bascically permanently available online tourneys it is completely meaningless. In fact, it's the other way around: If your aim is to optimize your houerly rate, then it's always an error to pass on an even slightly profitable situation early in the tourney as you haven't yet invested much time, provided you can enter a new tourney in case you drop out.

Paul2432 · #6 12-02-2003, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the first hand I had hit my J high flush and then made a fairly sizable bet which I suspect my oppoent thought I was bluffing. My opponent had JQ. He goes all-in even though he the flush was possibly present after my big bet. . . . What do you think

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you didn't really make a big bet after you made the flush. I'll make a guess and assume the blinds were 25/50. If so, then when you make your bet of 150 the pot is about 600 or 750 if you include your bet. Your opponent understandly reads this as weak and raises you all-in knowing he has the flush outs to fall back on if you call with a better hand. I think on the turn you should bet at least 600 if not all-in (depending on your stack size).

Paul

curmudgeon · #7 12-02-2003, 05:08 PM

You made the right call both times and got beat. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]Fogetaboutit.
You must include losing as part of the game, and NL has a much higher variance. There is just way too much all-in activity in online tournaments because of the large number of stupid players, so luck is a bigger factor.
Play LIMIT tournaments if you can't handle going all-in with that flush or KK. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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"Beware the amazing power of a large group of stupid people."