Experiment with raised pots

[PinkSteel]

By checking, you are giving up:
(1) Opponents making a mistake of folding when your hand is unimproved
(2) Opponents making a mistake of calling when your hand is better
(3) Opponents making a mistake of paying too much to draw out on you
(4) The information gained when they respond to your bet
(5) The opportunity to build a pot when you are ahead

You are gaining:
(1) The opportunity to trap opponents with mediocre hands into thinking they may be best when they aren't

I think you're giving up too much, especially at the low levels where players make first-level flop mistakes so often when given the opportunity.

[amoeba]

my range is what you expect for somebody with 9 to 10% pfr.

if they lead first, it'll depend on what I have but thats not the issue.

on the turn it depends on what they do and what I have.

My whole point is with a TPTK or overpair type hand, you typically won't bet away your whole stack anyways when somebody calls you. typically its equivalent to 2 streets of betting. I'm merely delaying my betting and thus keeping pot size manageable. Also, I get to turn for free with overs and don't have to face a continuation bet snap attempt at the flop.

If I have a monster, I'm only getting paid if they get a monster too so I have no problems checking the flop and letting them see a free card.

I'll give an example.

I raise preflop in position.

flop comes 3 7 T rainbow. at this point I can have 45-QJ, AT-AK, 88-AA. Granted opponent probably doesn't realize my 45-QJ range due to my relative tightness at the table.

I just don't see how a continuation bet here is better than a check especially if opponent is prone to checkraise snap.

of course I haven't called his checkraise snaps in the past with say just so I have no idea whether he is bluffing or not but his proclivity to do it makes me think he is bluffing at least some of the time.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I think a lot of useful discussion can be found here

[amoeba]

1) often times they are folding even when I'm unimproved and I have the best hand.

2) yes they will call with a worse hand but if they call my turn bet then I slow down on river anyways so I get 2 streets of bets regardless of which way I go.

3) relatively uncoordinated board. if they have oesd, they will call my flop bet anyways and if scarecard comes, I have no idea whether they called my flop bet with top pair thinking I have overs or whether they called on straight draw.

4) I'm not sure how I get more info. if called what do I know? it could be a oesd, gutshot, top pair, mid pair, or set.

5) you won't play for your whole stack with overpair type hands anyways and monsters won't get paid off unless opponent also has monster.



what I gain is

1) opportunity to trap.

2) opportunity to catch free card when I have gutshot draw or oesd and raised preflop with suited connectors

3) opportunity to represent missed overs with suited connectors that hit when an A or K hits the turn.

4) controlled pot size for those instances where my opponent hits a set and I have overpair.

5) opportunity to actually hit with my missed overs for free.

6) avoid a continuation snap off from an aggressive opponent where I can't tell if its a continuation snap off or a monster like a set therefore I have to call with overpair type hands.

[jonnyUCB]

on this type of table, I believe it's best to play TAG, which means not raising wide ranges PF.

[amoeba]

ok, so lets say your hand range is only big overs or overpair, you will still have big overcards more often.

I still don't see that much fundamentally wrong with checking the flop.

[amoeba]

wow I actually posted in that original thread.

I'm beginning to agree more and more with soah in that thread now.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm beginning to agree more and more with soah

[/ QUOTE ]
In my experience, this is very rarely a bad thing.

[rydazzle]

You are talking about continuation bets here, right? Yes, doing a continuation bet evertime rags flop will start to get noticed, and called. You should mix it up randomly - I like 60% bet 40% check...some may like more or less...but checking every time? You should also check once in a while when you hit top-pair on the flop, also somewhat randomly. HOH makes a good point, it would always be correct to do a 1/2 to pot sized bet with top pair on the board if no one was watching. Since players learn, in order to get the +EV you have to vary your play here (obviously I am not offering anything new or ground breaking) ... which segways to:

What is the purpose of the experiment? to see what your opponent does on on the turn? I always fall a bit back on my heals when a pre-flop raiser checks to me heads-up. Something is amiss, I'll to do some probing to find out what is going on: he hit and is checking to vary play, he still has an overpair, or he missed.

[intheflatfield]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say each and everytime. I said on a uncoordinated flop.

But lets say its uncoordinated flops with no broadway.

in this instance I think always betting out, which I suspect what lot of this board does, is incorrect. In this instance you are representing overpair each and everytime and I think its silly to believe that the typical SSNL opponent will believe you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're missing the point. If you raise pf, you are obligated to continue the bet on the flop (unless of course your stumble onto trips, or a monster) in which case checking may be appropriate.

But by checking everytime you miss the flop, you have no idea where you are in the hand and you would be put in a position to have to call a pot-size bet or more, and that is dangerous. Let them make the decision on what you have, not the other way around.