easy does it

[William Jockusch]

Is the purpose of your post to throw barbs, or to provoke mature discussion of the merits?

[bigfishead]

Played perfectly. Some will never get it.
Ni Han Tommy.

[highland]

Agreed.

on a flop of T72r this play is incorrect. It's even worse with the T88. Any 8 will check-raise with you immediately to his left. His holding is insecure (a T probably) and he wants you to knock out the field with a raise. Moreover, L1 or L2 might have bet out an 8, making it even less likely you're behind here.

[Turning Stone Pro]

The latter. I am trying to demonstrate how incorrect this thinking is by using colorful language and an example people will understand.

Believe me, inducing bluffs with two cards to come with a hand very susceptible to overcards is an extremely poor (i.e., expensive) strategy.

Your lucky a fellow like me is here to tell it the way it is, even if the 2+2 in-crowd is ocassionally offended. Small price to pay, IMO.

TSP

[Sqred]

I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[Trix]

Wouldn´t you want to protect your hand from the other two when L3 puts in bet number 10 ?

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Three players limped (L1, L2, L3). I was on the button with JJ. I raised, the blinds folded, and the limpers called. The pot was four-handed with me last.

The flop was 10-8-8 twotone. L1 checked, L2 checked, and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten, an eight, or a draw. I called, L1 folded, and L2 called. Three players.

The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

The river was a queen. L2 checked, so I put him on a miss. L3 checked, so I put him on a ten. I bet, L2 folded, and L3 called.



[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'll make this simple. I'd raise the flop for obvious reasons, but since you choose to pretty much always wait til the turn to see where you're at, I'll just accept it and move on.

On the turn, you put the first guy on a draw, and the second guy on a ten or an eight. So, this one is easy. You raise. You can let the first guy call with his J9 or QJ or 97 or 67 if he wants, or fold it if he wants. If he calls, all the better. The next guy isn't going to three-bet you without an eight. You know it, I know it. So just sneak a raise in there. You will make two more bets when you are ahead and lose the same when you are behind. Will you explain why there is any good reason to not raise the turn, besides laziness? I don't buy the "I don't want to open myself up to a bluff" line, because you are better than someone who would irrationally fear something like that.
-James

[skp]

Sure, Tommy made the most he could in this particular spot by not raising the flop but that does not make calling the correct play. You would be singing a different tune if some other cards came on the turn and river.

The flop bet came from Tommy's immediate right when he was the PFR. Usually, that means "no trip 8's". Tommy has two guys left to act behind him. When Tommy just calls, those guys are likely to also put the bettor on a Ten and peel one off. Even if they only have 3 outers, that's 6 outs together plus whatever outs the bettor may have. Therefore, this is an easy (and must) raise for Tommy. There are already 10 plus small bets in the pot. This is not the time to think about inducing bluffs on later streets by merely calling on the flop with a vulnerable-ass hand.

I find it odd that you think that the river bet is risky. IMO, Tommy played that street perfectly. I really don't think he played the flop optimally though as explained above.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I think you're way off base here. First, (chronoligcally, not in terms of importance), you for some reason think that being raised on a bluff would be a bad thing. I'd welcome it with my JJ, 'cause I ain't folding them to a single raise. Second and third (the two are related), you for some other unexplained reason seem to think that a raise would drop L2 and that Tommy's JJ is "very hard to draw out on." If L2 is on a decent flush draw then he's got at least one overcard to Tommy's JJ, which gives him ELEVEN outs. If L1 has a T and an overcard to Tommy's JJ, then that's another five outs. Make no mistake, Tommy's hand is very vulnerable.

Overall, I don't think the hand is as bad as some of the other stuff Tommy's posted lately, but I think that Tommy's reads were right: L1 had a T and L2 had a draw -- neither of which is at all likely to fold to a raise with this reasonably big pot -- and in that situation raising either the flop or the turn is the far better play.

[hockey1]

bingo