Terrible call on the turn? and question about pot odds

Mizzles · #1 12-17-2004, 04:22 AM

Please excuse if you consider the below terrible poker play. I'm still learning. Was this a terrible call on the turn? I think I would have folded if it I only had a four flush and not the added gut shot possibility. One question about pot odds -- don't you have to take into consideration the money you would win (ie future pot expection) if you hit your card? Or do you just calculate based on what's in the pot at the time? Do you include your own money going in as part of the total?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.66 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.33 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (20.33 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 20.33 BB

bernie · #2 12-17-2004, 04:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Please excuse if you consider the below terrible poker play. I'm still learning. Was this a terrible call on the turn? I think I would have folded if it I only had a four flush and not the added gut shot possibility. One question about pot odds -- don't you have to take into consideration the money you would win (ie future pot expection) if you hit your card? Or do you just calculate based on what's in the pot at the time? Do you include your own money going in as part of the total?

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but with these questions, what are you playing 15-30 for? You must have some deep pockets.

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Mizzles · #3 12-17-2004, 04:44 AM

Maybe you could have just helped answer my question instead of putting me down? I just have never understood about pot odds whether you are to take into account only the money in the pot at the time or also add on the future money you expect to go into it. Thanks

TStoneMBD · #4 12-17-2004, 04:50 AM

i would have folded the turn, but your call isnt that bad. neither one of your draws is to the nuts, someone could have a set and it may easily get capped here as it did. youre lucky another player came along for the ride increasing your pot odds.

as for your question about calculating odds for future bets, we call this term "implied odds". yes this is relevant, and if you hit your flush draw you will gain a couple extra bets assuming the river doesnt get checked through. if someone has a higher flush then you we call this "reverse implied odds", because youre losing extra bets for the rest of the hand.... the money that you have put into the pot is irrelevant, all that matters is how much money is in the pot in general.

while bernie was certainly rude in his post, he is probably correct is assuming that you are not at all ready for PP15-30 if you have to ask these questions.

i suggest you read theory of poker by sklanksy if youre interested in learning more about these subjects.

Blake Lovely · #5 12-17-2004, 04:57 AM

You should add bets you will make on later streets, however in order for the call to be correct you generally need to have really close odds.
In this situation, you have to account for the times your hand is no good when it gets there. Beaten by a boat or a higher flush.
The A or 2 of diamonds pairs the board, and there is likely a set out. plus the odds of a higher flush, you go from having 9 outs to about 6-7, on top of this the pot is laying you just better than 3-1, with 7 outs you are a little better than 7-1, you wont make those bets up on the river, its too great.
You dont count the money you will be putting into the pot when counting down your pot odds.

bernie · #6 12-17-2004, 11:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
while bernie was certainly rude in his post

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think i could sugarcoat it any more than saying, 'No offense' at the beginning of it. Sorry if it was too honest of a question. It's a question i'd like to ask many of the 20-40 players where i play. Except, there im not on a forum that's there to help people, im there to make money off them.

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JasonP530 · #7 12-17-2004, 01:03 PM

I think the call is better if the A is the ace of diamonds. In this case, someone could have aces with a diamond draw, which leaves you drawing almost dead. You should really learn about pot and implied odds, as it will improve your game tremendously. Best of luck.

Sqred · #8 12-18-2004, 12:05 AM

This is a really tuff spot for a beginning player, especially considering the amount of money involved.

Here goes my meager analysis. You sir are [censored] on the turn and you need to get away from this hand.

However..... I play my draws like if I hit them they are going to be the best hand. Tha said, If I flop a draw I think is good I put the money in on the flop. I do this for value and to make my call on the turn when I miss better [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Pure and simple you should have gotten in 4 small bets on the flop if you could with this many callers.

After doing that and missing you are in a check call mode. Period. Make your judgement on the flop and go with it.

By the way, I'm not trying to be rude at all, but you need to have a good grasp of basic theory at this level, or you will get killed. You don't have that grasp yet, no big deal, just learn.

My style in summary, decide if you are drawing to a winning hand, balance the odds wih the number of callers, and GET THE MONEY IN ON THE FLOP. It makes so many turn decisions that much easier.

Oh, by the way, you should of mucked the turn considering the pot size on the flop.

FJM

elindauer · #9 12-18-2004, 12:20 AM

Wow. It's rarely correct to fold a draw this big, but this might just be the time. Note that the pot is really rather small, can still be raised again behind you, and you're not winning much by calling even if you're live, while the possibility of drawing dead looms.

I'd have a hard time folding this, but that's probably the best play.

good luck.
eric

elindauer · #10 12-18-2004, 12:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My style in summary, decide if you are drawing to a winning hand, balance the odds wih the number of callers, and GET THE MONEY IN ON THE FLOP. It makes so many turn decisions that much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

While not ridiculous, this really isn't good advice. It's far too simplistic. In particular, ramming and jamming a medium flush draw with no other outs against two or three opponents is not a great idea.

mmy 2 cents.
eric