KK meets aggression

_bustedflush_ · #1 04-16-2005, 07:26 AM

Pretty early in the session, but villain had certainly shown some lagish tendency. The main question I have is whether to raise the flop or not. HU I think I would have, but I backed off 3way. Any thoughts?

Absolute Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP1 caps, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

adsman · #2 04-16-2005, 07:33 AM

3 way makes a raise even more important. I'm not calling this down like that 3way. You're toast too often. Get one of those players out and get it heads up or get out yourself. In this hand though your position is a problem - you can't force out anyone with a double bet. I raise the flop and see what transpires.

thesharpie · #3 04-16-2005, 07:49 AM

I think it's fine.

FWIW I'm more inclined to raise when the pot is multiway than when it's HU, but here there's no way to protect your hand anyway, plus it's not worth it if you could.

thesharpie · #4 04-16-2005, 07:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
3 way makes a raise even more important. I'm not calling this down like that 3way. You're toast too often. Get one of those players out and get it heads up or get out yourself. In this hand though your position is a problem - you can't force out anyone with a double bet. I raise the flop and see what transpires.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say you can't force anyone out with a flop raise yet you're going to raise it anyway? What is this going to accomplish?

Even if I could knock CO out, say MP1 was on my right, I still wouldn't raise. There are no draws, if you're ahead it's unlikely CO is going to outdraw you, and you don't want to get 3 bet. In fact I'd rather have CO in the hand if I have him beat, his range of hands he's calling with if behind are likely 2-5 outers. I put him on a 2 outer most of the time.

Malachii · #5 04-16-2005, 08:11 AM

Maybe I'm too weak tightie, but I would've folded this on the flop. Look at the texture of the board - A-8-2 with no suits. He's not semi bluffing with an OESD or flush. You're toast. If my math is right, you'd have to be good 23% of the time here for this calldown to be break even. I don't think there's any way that's the case.

HOWEVER, if you insist on playing, I think calling down is optimal in this particular situation. Against a *normal* opponent, if you wanted to get a cheap showdown you could raise the flop. If he 3 bet you, you could safely fold. Also, if he called the raise and then checked it to you on fourth street, you could check behind and save yourself a bet. However, given that villain has shown some loose aggressive tendencies, a calldown is good because it uses the standard way ahead/way behind line.

thesharpie · #6 04-16-2005, 08:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm too weak tightie, but I would've folded this on the flop. Look at the texture of the board - A-8-2 with no suits. He's not semi bluffing with an OESD or flush. You're toast. If my math is right, you'd have to be good 23% of the time here for this calldown to be break even. I don't think there's any way that's the case.

HOWEVER, if you insist on playing, I think calling down is optimal in this particular situation. Against a *normal* opponent, if you wanted to get a cheap showdown you could raise the flop. If he 3 bet you, you could safely fold. Also, if he called the raise and then checked it to you on fourth street, you could check behind and save yourself a bet. However, given that villain has shown some loose aggressive tendencies, a calldown is good because it uses the standard way ahead/way behind line.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not semibluffing, if behind he either has something like a pocket pair, or is outright bluffing. You are getting enough implied odds on the flop to take one off, and once the board pairs and CO doesn't raise it's even easier to see a showdown IMO.

adsman · #7 04-16-2005, 09:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 way makes a raise even more important. I'm not calling this down like that 3way. You're toast too often. Get one of those players out and get it heads up or get out yourself. In this hand though your position is a problem - you can't force out anyone with a double bet. I raise the flop and see what transpires.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say you can't force anyone out with a flop raise yet you're going to raise it anyway? What is this going to accomplish?

Even if I could knock CO out, say MP1 was on my right, I still wouldn't raise. There are no draws, if you're ahead it's unlikely CO is going to outdraw you, and you don't want to get 3 bet. In fact I'd rather have CO in the hand if I have him beat, his range of hands he's calling with if behind are likely 2-5 outers. I put him on a 2 outer most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

What this accomplishes is that you stand a good chance of finding out if your hand is good. If it is 3bet back to you - bye bye. That's a fold and I've saved the 1.5 bets that it took to call down to the river. If it is just called then they might check to you on the turn. You can take the freecard or not, depends how you want to play it.

handsome · #8 04-16-2005, 11:31 AM

Whoa... wtf? By the river you know CO has at least an ace. He's going no where. Fold the river. If you could go back in time I think the best option would be raising the flop, calling a 3-bet and folding the turn UI. You'll get these types of hands all the time and even though it's sad you have to lay them down sometimes, even against LAGs. Can't win em all.

_bustedflush_ · #9 04-16-2005, 11:39 AM

Another lesson in importance of reads. I felt good about the wa/wb idea, but I need a better handle on my opponents. This time it worked out.

Villain showed 72o!!!
CO had JJ (Glad he never raised)

MHIG and I have a new best friend.