do we have free will?

Given that God can see the beginning and end of time, we can still have free will. Who's to say that God, with this wonderful eyesight, isn't seeing multiple outcomes, as in the many worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Now, if God knows one outcome is better than another, maybe he can cause the better outcome to occur, but maybe he doesn't want to. Hence, free will.

The concept of Free Will is incompatible with a deterministic Universe. And there is currently no reason to believe that the Universe is not deterministic. Thus, it is quite likely that Free Will is indeed an illusion.

Now if only I could use that premise to absolve myself of moral responsibility, I could get on with my raping and pillaging.

"And there is currently no reason to believe that the Universe is not deterministic."
Spud347

There is also currently no reason to believe that the universe is deterministic.

[hypermegachi]

just because God can have free will doesn't imply that His creations will too.

He can choose whatever outcome He wants, and that has nothing to do with us having will in our decisions.

"There is also currently no reason to believe that the universe is deterministic."

Uhm, name one process in this Universe that doesn't behave deterministically. What effect doesn't have a cause?

The Copenhagen interpretation holds that in quantum mechanics, measurement outcomes are fundamentally indeterministic.

That's not to say the universe is nondeterministic. the copenhagen interpretation is only one of several. I don't think however, that anyone can prove or disprove a first cause.

[ QUOTE ]
premise 1: God exists outside of time.

premise 2: God can see the beginning and end of time (from premise 1).

premise 3: Therefore, God knows what everyone will do (from premise 2).

conclusion: we have no free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me first see if I correctly understand the argument you wish to make by rewording it a bit. Then I can render my agreement/disagreement along with my supporting evidence.

premise 1: God exists outside of time.
premise 2: Because God exists outside of time, God can see the beginning and end of time.

minor conclusion 1: Therefore, God knows what we ("everyone") will do.

major conclusion: 2: Since God knows what we will do, we have no free will.

[Mroberts3]

I don't claim to know a lot about quantum mechanics, but I do know that in order to believe in a deterministic universe you have to ignore it almost completely.

I think there is a Buddhist saying, "You can't step into the same river once."

In order to not have free will, the universe must be deterministic. For that to be true all parts of the universe must act predicably in order to accuratly predict the future. Unfortunatly, the deeper you go, the less you have to hold on to until you finaly come back to where you started and realize that you are making a post on this forum at 1:45AM an have class tomorrow.

I guess what I'm saying is that "god" really doesn't matter here because on the microscopic level the universe is probabalistic, something I see as being almost outside of god's power to change even if he can "watch" it happen. (of couse i feel dumb arguing this because anyone can just step out and say "no, god is super powerful so he can see/do/change whatever he wants and I'm powerless to use logic against something like that.")


Also, it seems dumb to make a point in this post at all since we are starting with a premise that almost by its nature makes your argument for you.

[hypermegachi]

it's not just that God knows what we will do...we have already done it.

if time has already ended, it must follow that we already did what we will do in the future. it doesn't matter if i choose to go biking tomorrow instead of jogging, because even the decision to choose is already written in the path i must follow.

i didn't realize that free will could me tackled from so many different perspectives...i.e. deterministics vs nondeterministic, omnipotent God, etc.

so let's try to keep it to the time constraint...for now :P