JT hand on 2/4 Party

[baronzeus]

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I don't get it. If I recall correctly, you were pretty against Josh's turn raise in the A hand from the archives


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was this the 52s hand? if so read my responses again. i thought it was a (must, easy) raise.


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From reading a lot of your posts carefully over the past few weeks, I get the sense that you just like aggression. You don't think about when and where it should be placed. You just raise preflop and postflop you bet and raise and stop 'n' go go go without thinking about it and its consequences carefully enough. I could be wrong, but those are my observations and I hope you find them helpful.

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I am aggressive, i play a lot of 3-4 handed games, but my aggression (although on occasion gets out of hand) usually has good reason, whether it be value, bluffing, semi-bluffing or whatever. and another thing to point out is that i generally post hands where i think I played too weakly or too strongly. basing my play just off of those hands is unreasonable.

[jason_t]

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From reading a lot of your posts carefully over the past few weeks, I get the sense that you just like aggression. You don't think about when and where it should be placed. You just raise preflop and postflop you bet and raise and stop 'n' go go go without thinking about it and its consequences carefully enough. I could be wrong, but those are my observations and I hope you find them helpful.

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this isn't a fair paragraph. I am aggressive, i play a lot of 3-4 handed games, but my aggression (although on occasion gets out of hands) usually has good reason, whether it be value, bluffing, semi-bluffing or whatever. and another thing to point out is that i generally post hands where i think I played too weakly or too strongly. basing my play just off of those hands is also unreasonable.

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I'm basing my judgement on hands that you post but also your replies to other people's hands.

I was sincerely trying to be helpful to you with my post. It was intended as constructive criticism and not as unfair negative criticism. I felt it may have been appropriate because it came up a few times yesterday/today in threads that both you and I were involved in that I noticed you might be erring on the aggressive side for the wrong or unknown reasons. I didn't mean to be unfair to you, and I didn't mean to embarass you publically; if I was, or did, I apologize.

Let's not derail this thread; at this point this is best continued in private.

[mack848]

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River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets.

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I don't like this.

I don't think he ever folds a Queen here and I don't think he calls half of the time Hero has him beat.

[jason_t]

I don't think I like any street.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Flop:
I think the call is too loose (not elaborating, since the thread has turned to other streets)

Turn:
A bit too-loose preflop cold calling players don't tend to have the knowledge of the game necessary to raise draws, thus I really put button with his flopraise on a legitimate hand on the flop (Q, 2 pair or set). When button bets again on turn he does with a hand that has you beat. You checkraise to try to clean outs, but so many problems are potential; CO might call, button might 3-bet. Your real outs might just be 1 jack (discounting heart due to CO) and two 9s. Not saying that CO has flush draw, but the possibility adds to the low value of checkraising.

River: You have slowed down button on turn. You are beat so often on the river that your bet has no significant value.

[@bsolute_luck]

i'm mulling over the flop call and button's description is preflop not postflop.

so i only like the flop call because: CO could easily be betting UI overcards since it was checked to him and only button is left. button could easily be betting an 8 or 7 here. he may have some additional backdoor draw to go with it.

so figuring that, the c/r is for value and to fold CO's OCs.

the river i disagree that we should check/call. simply because it gives him a cheap showdown for his worse pair and a Q is not raising here but will probably bet if checked to so we're in the same spot, plus if we are raised, we should fold figuring something that beats 2nd pair.

i don't know why we would put Button on an aggressive draw: why would be face the field to cold call? you guys play draws like this?

[adsman]

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the river i disagree that we should check/call. simply because it gives him a cheap showdown for his worse pair and a Q is not raising here but will probably bet if checked to so we're in the same spot, plus if we are raised, we should fold figuring something that beats 2nd pair.


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Check/calling does encourage a bluff from a busted draw.

[imported_stealthcow]

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I don't think I like any street.

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if you've got a great read on the btn raising here with any pair, any draw everytime, or even A high occasionally then its okay because you can make this play with any 9 T or J turn. but i hate calling 2 cold with JTs with the co still to act on the flop.

i hate the fact that its quite likely you're drawing pretty slim and this overly looseish btn is going to call with any Q he has.

and i really think people over value the idea of trying to knock out other players to pick up outs.

stealthcow-

[@bsolute_luck]

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Check/calling does encourage a bluff from a busted draw.

[/ QUOTE ] really?? man, i gotta start playing against these people. a busted draw would bet after being c/r? should i be doing that because that just sounds absolutely stupid.

[hicherbie]

im done with this hand when its two cold back to me on the flop.

as for the turn cr, i would like it better if hero's read on the button was laggy nit rather than just a little loose. i think the bet on the turn into two usually means J or Q (or better of course). once he calls there, i would think that he could call the river bet.

i just think that for the most part, getting tricky in multiway pots will just cause you to put in too many bets with the worst of it. players are just too loose and passive at 2/4 (something to be glad about of course).