Pot Odds...preflop?

[cgwahl]

This might seem like a very basic question, but while watching a poker tournament on TV some nights ago it got me wondering since one of the announcers kept saying such and such was getting great pot odds and had to call even if their particular cards weren't exactly great. Granted, the announcer may have been a moron and just liked using buzz words (incorrectly), but like I said...it got me wondering.

For instance, person raises and you get 2 to 1 pot odds if you call with 10 5 offsuit.

How do you correctly figure pot odds preflop? Is this something that you only really see in no limit or can this be used in limit as well? Do you just go by how the odds of getting certain hands on the flop based on what your hole cards are then base what your implied odds are when the flop and so on come?

Because right now, since I'm a novice, I just base whether or not I go into a hand on what the cards I have and where I'm at and stuff. Granted, I'll still sometimes go into a hand if there is a lot of money in the pot as is and I can get in cheap, but pot odds preflop is just something I never even considered before. And if it was at all mentioned in any of the books I have read so far I must have missed it.

Thanks to whomever answers.

[SheridanCat]

I don't really think the notion of pot odds is very helpful preflop, especially in limit. When you consider pot odds you're trying to think about the odds the pot is offering versus the odds against (usually) making a particular hand you think can be a winner.

If you try to do this preflop, you're going to have a very hard time figuring out what your odds of making your hand are since you've only seen 2/7 of the cards. Rather we try to get our money in with the best of it for the situation. That is, we want lots of players with some speculative hands and we want to see the flop cheaply. Or, we want to narrow the field because the cards we have play well against few opponents. Sometimes we don't care, and we're betting for value and hoping everyone comes along or even raises behind you, such as when holding AA preflop.

Preflop there are 50 unseen cards. I'm not a real math person, but I bet if you used pot odds preflop to determine your play, you'd only play AA, KK and AKs. There are too many variables, I think, preflop to worry about pot odds.

I think that NL may be a different story since you can manipulate the pot odds given to another player by making bets of differing size. I play a little NL, but I rarely worry too much about pot odds there since you often will not have the odds to draw. To me, NL is about implied odds - the chances of taking the other guy's stack.

I may be wrong and pot odds preflop make a ton of sense. I'm happy to be educated on this topic.

Regards,

T

[cgwahl]

That's what I was thinking, but I was wondering if I was missing something. I am hoping the guy was just using the term incorrectly, because even in no limit I do not see how pot odds could be useful preflop. Unless you go by what the odds of flopping something. But even then I think it would be kind of not useful to use.

Then again, I'm a beginner, so what do I know...

[Redd]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a few simplifications a person can do to get a rough idea of pots odds pf?

The example I'm thinking of is for small PPs: you're about 7-1 to flop a set with little other value, and I've heard people say that you should call getting around 5-1 (due to implied odds).

Redd

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
The example I'm thinking of is for small PPs: you're about 7-1 to flop a set with little other value, and I've heard people say that you should call getting around 5-1 (due to implied odds).


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, right. You can say my odds against making a set are 7:1, but it's very, very rare that we actually act on that. Do you really only call if there are 7+ players in? No, most of us will limp with almost any number from any position and we'll call a raise - but not usually cold call. So, we may know the odds, but the implied odds when making the set override the pot odds.

Additionally, there are other ways to win with a pocket pair than flopping a set, so the pot odds still don't really come into play here.

Regards,

T

[Phil Van Sexton]

In tournaments, pot odds are often talked about when your opponent moves all-in or if calling would put you all-in. In both cases, there are no implied odds since there will be no more betting.

As pointed out by other posters, implied odds are usually more important pre-flop when players are not all-in, but that's way too complex for a TV audience.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, pot odds are often talked about when your opponent moves all-in or if calling would put you all-in. In both cases, there are no implied odds since there will be no more betting.


[/ QUOTE ]

This I can see. But usually there are many other, and more important, considerations than pot odds when deciding to call the all-in preflop.

Regards,

T