100/200 O/8 shorthanded hand

[jkinetic]

The other night I was playing 100/200 HO with O/8 having a half kill. At the time the games was 5 handed.

I am predominantly a holdem player, I have played some O/8 but have sweated my friend who is an excellent O/8 player many times. I know this is not the greatest of spots for me but that is not the point of this post.

So this is a kill pot, 150/300 and I have AK22 UTG with the A2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and I just limp. A lady to my immediate left calls and this older man with the kill button raps. We take the pot 3 handed.

So the flop comes down K67 with one spade and I lead, the lady calls and the older man raises. He has been doing this alot and it could mean anything, I think of reraising but I just smooth call hoping to get the lady in between us to call as well and she cooperates.

On the turn comes an A that completes the rainbow board and I lead, all of a sudden the lady wakes up and raises and the older man could not muck quick enough. I just call.

On the river comes a 4, and I check call.

I think my play on every street was debatable. I will have results later, just want to get some opinions on this, especially from an expert like Ray Zee if at all possible.

I think I could have played it more aggressively since it was shorthanded and I wanted to pull the trigger a few times during the hand.

[Yads]

Well first off, you have to raise that hand pre flop. You have an excelent hand even for a full game. You have to reraise on the flop, you have a nut low draw with top pair top kicker and a backdoor nut flush draw. Also having two 2s there's less chance that you'll be counterfeited. Now the turn sucks, You have top two pair, but there's now almost no chance of a scoop for you. Check call or maybe even check and raise to try to trap any weak low for an extra bet. I think check calling on the river heads up is fine, there's a chance you're getting scooped, but I think there's a good chance you have the best high, since it seems like the lady woke up with the made nut low and some kind of high.

[Billy Baroo]

I'd raise this pre-flop. In a full game I'd consider calling UTG if it was likely to cause several players to take the flop; however, in this instance I'd want to raise because A) you are unlikely to get a big multi-way pot because it's shorthanded and B) there is extra blind money on the table because of the kill pot.

I think your play on the later streets was fine, but if I was in your shoes I would have raised before the flop.

[gergery]

My two cents:

Raise preflop. You have a good hand, but one that will still miss frequently so you’d be happy to just take the blinds. Your hand’s relative advantage vs. your opponents is perhaps slightly better with 1 opponent vs. 3 or 4.

Checkraise the flop. Since your objective is to scoop or ¾ how can you do that with this flop? Well, 75% of the lows that come put a straight on the board. Any A or 2 that helps your high put a low on the board. So unless you get a K or backdoor spades its pretty hard to scoop if your opponents stick around. So your objective is to get them to fold, or least minimize the competition so your TPTK might hold up for hi. If the old guy has been raising but can fold to action, then I like a checkraise to try and push lady out. Especially since free cards might help you more than your opponents. If you lead out then I like a reraise to put the lady to the test.

Call the turn. You’re getting 11:1 odds, and between the chances that your high is good and the chances that your low might come in make this worth continuing when heads up.

Call the river. There is a decent chance the 4 counterfeited her since her turn raise represented a low hand and you have the 2’s, so your low might be good here. And if she had a hand like 3467 or AK45 then you’d scoop or ¾ respectively.

So Ray, how’d I do?

--Greg

[jkinetic]

I ended up with 3/4.

She turned over Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Maybe this game wasn't as bad a spot as I suggested.

Almost everyone who responded suggested that I raise preflop. Of course in hindsight, if I had raised she probably wouldn't have called with that hand.

My friend who I alluded to before thinks that raising before the flop is not as necessary in O/8 from early position as it would be in holdem. Plus he thinks that not raising before the flop will limit your swings, since no hand in O/8 is a huge favorite over any other hand like it would be in holdem.

I did consider reraising the flop, but like I said in the original post I wanted to trap the lady in between who might have an inferior low draw. Also, since my position was so poor, I wasn't so sure what to do on the turn if I had bricked so I felt just calling was the right play.

Now the turn was good and bad. I was pretty sure my high was good and hoped a redraw to the low would be good as well. After talking to my friend, my resident 0/8 expert, he told me check calling is better than leading. I would definitely like to hear some opinions on that.

Also in regard to the turn, in a ring game, how much would things change as opposed to a shorthanded game? For instance, say I checked, someone bet and another raised, would you cold call 2 or pitch it?

Now the river was where I felt I should have used my instincts and reraised her. I was pretty sure that my high was good and not so sure about my low but I felt I could have raised it for value, since I was pretty sure I had half the pot locked up and could get 1/2 the low.

Not so sure if this is 20/20 hindsight or I should have trusted my instincts?

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Almost everyone who responded suggested that I raise preflop. Of course in hindsight, if I had raised she probably wouldn't have called with that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
in hindsight, you made more money playing it the way you did

[Danielih]

One time I accidentally capped it with 37o and flopped quads and won a 9k pot. THEREFORE it was clearly the right play. Thank you for your meaningless results oriented opinion. That does not make this play correct. Ok 1-2 at the Bellagio. I play that when im not 36 tabling 2-4 omaha8 online.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
One time I accidentally capped it with 37o and flopped quads and won a 9k pot. THEREFORE it was clearly the right play. Thank you for your meaningless results oriented opinion. That does not make this play correct. Ok 1-2 at the Bellagio. I play that when im not 36 tabling 2-4 omaha8 online.

[/ QUOTE ]
my repsonse wasnt instructional, true, it was a comment to show that things shouldnt be based on hindsight.
and if you want to say my comment was result oriented, what was your extremely indepth response based on? how do you know IF he raised preflop the q246 would fold? how do you know the 3bet makes q246 fold? the other responses were for the most part very explanatory and strategic, except yours (which was based on hindsight) and mine. mine was, according to you, a meaningless and results oriented post (questionable), but yours was just the most meaningless (unquestionable). i can only imagine what your response would have been had you known the lady had something like K2K3. probably something like "this is clearly a preflop limp situation, and a fold when the A turns. your low is no good and youre probably beaten badly for high" if you want to appear brilliant, give us some content, not "you should have 3bet the flop which also would have enabled you to win the entire pot" because you knew her cards. he didnt know she had Q246, maybe she does have something like K2K3 or AKK2, then how does your 3bet planlook?

and nice work with the "Would you mind sharing where you play?" comment, as if youre gonna swoop down and take all his chips, real friendly. the guy basically said he doesnt play the game very much if at all, and youre acting like a vulture.(if im wrong about your intentions of this comment then forgive me, but thats the way it comes off.)

[Danielih]

Well it is hard for me to respond to this. You called my post results oriented because I said that raising was the right play to limit the players in the pot and increase your chances of winning. If, the players should choose to call then it is a value raise. It is likely that at the time, preflop and flop that AK22s is the best hand at the table.

Think about what you just said. You called my comments results oriented and then said I failed to consider that the woman might be holding nut nut in a 3 handed game. Both hands you give her contain the only other two kings left in the deck. Very very unlikely. In fact, The range of hand that she could be holding that are better than his, preflop and flop is ridiculously low. Even if the woman has something decent, he has enough equity 3 handed to raise the pot. If fourbet calling on the flop calling is the best play pending the turn.

I have no problem admitting maybe I am not explaining it all that well. Regardless I think that you fail to consider that raising and 3betting are the right plays. Why do you think that calling is right?

Furthermore, the game makeup (Holdem NL Holdem, 2-7 TD, etc.) that could justify open limping in any game with any number of players is rather rare. In a very loose 8-10 handed O8 game I will open limp with a bad low only hand like A234 or A235 etc only if I know it is going to encourage several people to limp after me, raising has a very low percentage of taking the blinds, and I am only going to get 3bet by a better hand. Now five handed with a kill it is just plain wrong to open limp.

Perhaps Ray Zee will come and write a sentence or two to clear this up.

Cheers

[Danielih]

Clearly this hand should be raised preflop. If you raised preflop the woman would not have called with Q246 and you would have scooped the entire pot. Additionally you should have 3bet the flop which also would have enabled you to win the entire pot.

Would you mind sharing where you play?

Thanks
Danny