JJ

[chief444]

made it an easy c/f for him after getting one LP raise and no 3-bet on the flop.

[oxymoron]

[ QUOTE ]
A big part of calling here is the fact that we can spike a jack piece while getting good odds (not to mention that our hand will be good a fair amount of the time).

[/ QUOTE ]

The J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? That would be great! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

At first this seemed like an easy raise to thin the field/see where I am at. I wouldn't necessarily assume that the people who called two have junk. I have seen people CC in LP with KK & QQ possibly AA. I'm beginning to like a fold here.

[QTip]

Great discussion so far imo.

So, I just sat there for a moment. I mumbled "I suck", and called. I just couldn't figure it out in time, but felt it was too much to fold, so I went with my gut.

I call, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, button raises, everyone calls.

I was trying to think of turns I would bet or raise, and my list was pretty small for betting. I'd like to hear other people's lists.

The turn was the 3 of spades.

It's check to MP2, who bets, button raises, one folds, 2 call 2 cold, I fold

rest of hand is here

http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?p...mp;hand=186103

[oxymoron]

I really enjoyed this post and I know I would have played it wrong by raising. Hopefully, next time this comes up I am able to fully assess the situation. It's easy to sit here and analyze the board and your hand without the comp and other tables beeping at you.

[cassady]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to wonder if doing a ram and jam on a draw heavy board is actually a leak of mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a huge multiway pot on a draw heavy board I would not ever ram and jam in a spot like this where my equity on each bet is fairly low.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said above on this board, I'd call, and hope for a safe turn card to raise.

But I'm thinking I don't do this often enough, and I probaly should go re-read the section on this subject in SSHAP.

I think where I'm making mistakes is in situations like holding in a middle position of a four way pot on a flop of 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] . Here my default would be raise the flop, and I'm wondering if that's a bad idea.

Ugh... I fold the flop.

Reverse implied are the suck.

I doubt I am ever seeing the turn for just one sb and raising licks balls.

[cassady]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh... I fold the flop.

Reverse implied are the suck.

I doubt I am ever seeing the turn for just one sb and raising licks balls.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're talking about this example:

[ QUOTE ]

I think where I'm making mistakes is in situations like holding in a middle position of a four way pot on a flop of 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] . Here my default would be raise the flop, and I'm wondering if that's a bad idea.


[/ QUOTE ]

then that's just weak-tight.

If you're talking about the original post, then it's debateable but i think calling and raising a relatively safe turn is the best play.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh... I fold the flop.

Reverse implied are the suck.

I doubt I am ever seeing the turn for just one sb and raising licks balls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think you have 10% equity on the flop?

Hi QTip-

Thanks for posting the results, that's a really amusing finish to the hand. For what it's worth, I'm in the raise or fold camp on the flop. Here's a few reasons why:

1) Our opponents are not JasonT. At least, not all of them. And because of this, they won't automatically 3-bet their draws if we raise, even if the draws are to the nuts.
2) Raising defines our hand a tiny bit. Enough that if someone donks the turn we might be able to fold. (Weak? Yeah I guess, maybe this is a poor argument.)
3) With so many people left to act behind us, calling is dumb. It encourages people to continue calling with hands we'd like to see out of there (even though they're likely calling anyway) and anyone with a halfway decent hand is raising this flop so we're putting in at least two anyway if we call that first bet. Why not take the aggression and put in the raise ourselves?
4) It has a tiny, but measurable, chance of buying us a free card on the turn, which we should take unless we are talented enough to turn a non-club jack. The free card works maybe 1/50 of the time or so, but that's starting to discount the added small bet we put in by raising.
5) Raising is more fun.

'-daz

[Pocket77s]

A three bet does not rule out the possibility of a draw, it does not rule out the possibility of anything. But why would the bettor just call the a raise from the Hero if he can make it two more bets back to the other two players in the hand? That does not make sense with a flush draw and a coordinated board. It just makes more sense if the bettor was betting a made hand or a strong draw from the SB (if he is the type of player that will bet a draw). And how does calling the flop help the situation when he could very well face a big bet on fourth street with two people in the pot calling in front of him? Even if he does raise the turn with a blank of fourth street, he's not going to get any straight or flush draw to fold when it's one more bet back to them. I just think raising here has more advantages. The Hero may in fact be well ahead of the bettor if he has a hand like TPTK or just a flush draw. A raise on the flop my cause the bettor to check to the raiser if a blank falls on 4th street. He's not going to have those opportunities if he just calls the flop. If a blank comes on 4th street and the SB bets again, the Hero's jacks are probably no good. That's just my opinion, what do you think?