NL50 QQ .. did I hit the turn or not?

poincaraux · #1 12-06-2005, 01:24 AM

When the turn came, I figured the only hand that could reasonably be ahead of me at this point was KK. Yes? No?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Hero ($104.25)
UTG ($128.64)
MP ($43.12)
CO ($0)
Button ($105.53)
SB ($47.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, MP raises to $1, Button calls $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.5, UTG calls $3.50, MP folds, Button calls $3.

Flop: ($13.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets $10, UTG calls $10, Button calls $10.

Turn: ($43.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero pushes

#2 12-06-2005, 01:30 AM

Sounds like someone ran into A10o.
You played it fine, however since all three of you are deep I'd bet like 35 and the push river but it ends up being the same thing, you might just get more value. You have to play your set like its good though. NH

ajmargarine · #3 12-06-2005, 01:44 AM

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When the turn came, I figured the only hand that could reasonably be ahead of me at this point was KK. Yes? No?

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So, why on earth did u push then? Value bet it. Value bet. Stickie note on my comp says VB, VB, VB. You're missing alot of value here most of the time. Because all you end up with are folds.

Raise more preflop from the SB. I'm not even CB'ing that flop more times than not into two callers, but the turn worked out for you....then you had to go and mess it up by pushing.

poincaraux · #4 12-06-2005, 02:16 AM

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When the turn came, I figured the only hand that could reasonably be ahead of me at this point was KK. Yes? No?

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So, why on earth did u push then?

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1) Lots of money in the pot .. I wouldn't be too unhappy if I took it down now. I'm new, and I'm a little afraid of big pots.
2) I thought hands like AK,AQ,AJ might call.
3) I'm not very good.
4) There's $43 in the pot and I have $90 in my stack. If I pot it and get a call, there's $129 in the pot and I have $47 in my stack on the river. No bet of mine means much on the river at this point, right? Or are you saying that that's the point: I'm pretty committed with my set now anyway. Or are you saying I should bet something like $25, leaving a pot of $93 and a stack of $65, which is a little more meaningful? I believe you that I should probably value-bet here, but I don't really know how yet.

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Value bet it. Value bet. Stickie note on my comp says VB, VB, VB. You're missing alot of value here most of the time. Because all you end up with are folds.

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I suppose the other way to interpret that is that if I want to push with QQ there, I should also bluff sometimes to make up for it. I don't really see myself bluffing there often enough to make up for it .. what do you think?

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Raise more preflop from the SB.

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Something like $5 sound better? I tend to raise smaller here when I'm out of position, but you're probably right again.

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I'm not even CB'ing that flop more times than not into two callers,

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Me either, for what it's worth.
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but the turn worked out for you....then you had to go and mess it up by pushing.

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Ok, so you get to the river with poker left to play, unlike me. How scared are you of an A or a T? If no A or T comes, stick the rest of your stack in?

#5 12-06-2005, 02:36 AM

On the turn--I'd bet around 30 then with that amount in the stack end up pushing most rivers. You might pick up some extra money by betting less then getting a call on the river anyway. (as a result getting an extra call by another player potentially) You don't want to scare anyone off with this hand yet you can't give up too cheap a card.

ajmargarine · #6 12-06-2005, 04:36 AM

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1) Lots of money in the pot .. I wouldn't be too unhappy if I took it down now. I'm new, and I'm a little afraid of big pots.
2) I thought hands like AK,AQ,AJ might call.
3) I'm not very good.
4) There's $43 in the pot and I have $90 in my stack. If I pot it and get a call, there's $129 in the pot and I have $47 in my stack on the river. No bet of mine means much on the river at this point, right? Or are you saying that that's the point: I'm pretty committed with my set now anyway. Or are you saying I should bet something like $25, leaving a pot of $93 and a stack of $65, which is a little more meaningful? I believe you that I should probably value-bet here, but I don't really know how yet.

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When you make a bet like this, you're likely to get called by one hand, the nut straight. Or, I suppose, the bottom end, and they both are WA of you.

If you VB, you may get called by the hands you mention, along with KJ, JT, KT, KQ, etc. But, they really can't call you if you push there, unless they are total donks. A VB of $35 there would be real nice. Prices out draws: If they call you with a weaker hand, you win, whether they hit the hand or not.

Find a style or system of value betting that you are comfortable with. Usually near pot on the flop and something around 2/3-3/4 pot on the turn. So for example, you flop TPTK HU with a pot of $8.50, bet $7 on the flop. Guy calls you pot is now about $22.50, bet something like $16 on the turn. You just have to find what you are comfortable with. And then make your contination bets the same size as your value bets. (Some people go 2/3 pot on flop, 1/2 on turn, which is fine as well)

Value betting properly is probably the key to how much success you will have at NLHE. If you can play ABC/TAG poker, you can win. How much of a winner you are is determined largely by how well you value bet. Hand reading also key, but that goes part and parcel with value betting. Don't be afraid of people chasing and hitting draws. Anytime someone chases with bad odds and hits a draw, it's good for you long term. Loose passives chasing (either draws or with a lesser made hand when they misread you) are where you make the bulk of your $$$ at NL100 and below.

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I suppose the other way to interpret that is that if I want to push with QQ there, I should also bluff sometimes to make up for it. I don't really see myself bluffing there often enough to make up for it .. what do you think?

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Get the basic ABC stuff down first before you start thinking about metagame issues. Bluff rarely until you are firm and confident in your game. One barrel, every once in awhile, no one's interested in the pot kind of bluffs are what I am talking about for a couple BB's here and there. Don't be throwing your whole stack in the middle as a bluff.

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Raise more preflop from the SB.

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Something like $5 sound better? I tend to raise smaller here when I'm out of position, but you're probably right again.

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You want to raise more when you are OOP preflop. Smaller just prices in limpers and they will have position on you throughout the hand. $5 is better for sure.

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Ok, so you get to the river with poker left to play, unlike me. How scared are you of an A or a T? If no A or T comes, stick the rest of your stack in?

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I'm more concerned about a 9, then a T. If no 9,T,A hit, I'd stick the rest in the middle. If one of those cards hit, I might c/c.

J Chap · #7 12-06-2005, 04:44 AM

FWIW, what do you do if you bet 35 on the turn, get one call, and the river pukes up a ten? Check fold or bet fold? And how much bet at that point?

Maulik · #8 12-06-2005, 07:52 AM

The hands taht will call you are AT & any set... Why not bet $30-40 on the turn and see waht the river brings?

Make it $5-7 to go. Against that many limpers I'm happy taking all their limped money and if one of them wants to come along for a missed set, let'em.

djoyce003 · #9 12-06-2005, 09:43 AM

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I suppose the other way to interpret that is that if I want to push with QQ there, I should also bluff sometimes to make up for it. I don't really see myself bluffing there often enough to make up for it .. what do you think?

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Easy now. You really don't want to be doing this on a bluff. Doing it as a semi-bluff is ok, because then you have outs to improve if you get called, but doing a naked bluff for your stack is stupid because you are likely to get called by a wide range of villain hands....don't bluff for your stack at these limits, but it is ok to semi-bluff. That gets you called by lots more hands with your sets thinking you are drawing.

As to this hand...you really just let lots of people with marginal hands off the hook. You are quite likely to be called only by hands that beat you here, which means you are risking 90 or whatever it is to win 30....that's a bad bet....bet the pot. Betting the pot gets you called by a much larger range of hands and could even get you raised by two pair or something...you are likely folding 2 pair hands out with this push unless they are superdonkeys, which they might well be.

pokernose · #10 12-06-2005, 10:05 AM

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I'm new, and I'm a little afraid of big pots.

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That is something you need to get over really fast. NL is all about playing big pots. Most of your profit will come from winning those.

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I tend to raise smaller here when I'm out of position, but you're probably right again.

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That is exactly opposite of the correct strategy for OOP play. You are giving your opponents a bigger edge on every round you play OOP. You want to take this pot down as quickly as possible. I would re-raise to about $5, but $7 would not be a horrible play.

I would bet the turn. If you are behind a straight, you have 10 outs. You will make good money from someone with 2 pair, unless the king hits on the river. A loose player with 1 pair may call here as well. I personally would not be completely afraid of committing all my chips here if I think I can get two people to come with me.