How good was Johnny Moss?

[dogmeat]

Ray Zee may not have a WSOP bracelet, but I spent enough time hearing about him/watching him/playing against him - in both live games and tournaments in the 1980's to say he is a qualified author. He is also an excellent cash game player, and if you were around in the 1980's you would have seen his name at the top of plenty of tournaments. As I said, they may not have been at the WSOP, but who cares? Many of the tournaments in the 1980's (Super Bowl of Poker/Grand Prix/etc.) were almost as big as the WSOP (as far as the number of entrants) with the exception of the $10K main event.

For what it's worth, back in 1984 I rembember Ray making a few final tables at the Golden Nugget's tournament (my best finish there was 27th) and he won a 380SL Mercedes............. Yeah, now that I think about it, he must be a bum.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[MCS]

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Stu Unger might have lived his life too fast but could you beat him in NLHE? OR gin rummy?

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No, but you know, Barry Greenstein thinks Stu may have been a lifetime loser at poker. Malmuth and Zee both think Johnny Moss was a bad limit poker player.

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Has Ray Zee ever won a major poker tournament?

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Do you think poker tournaments are the appropriate metric for poker skill? FWIW Bob Ciaffone calls Ray Zee one of the top dozen poker players in the world in his (non-2+2) No-Limit and Pot-Limit book.

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For golf....who the hell is Tom Watkins? Watson? whatever...Don't you have to be known to be over-rated?

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Do you seriously not know who Tom Watson is? The guy has won eight majors. If you don't know him, then your credibility re: golf is pretty much zero.

[fun160]

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i played many many times with him as far back as 1970. i posted a few times what i thought about his play.

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Ray, I don't doubt that you know your poker players, but it's hard to take seriously anyone who lists Jesus Christ as over-rated.

[fun160]

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How good of a hold em player was Johnny Moss? Could he have played today if he were alive?

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He'd struggle to even see the cards if he were still alive. After all, the man would be pushing a hundred years old!

[iraise50]

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Stu Unger might have lived his life too fast but could you beat him in NLHE? OR gin rummy?

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No, but you know, Barry Greenstein thinks Stu may have been a lifetime loser at poker. Malmuth and Zee both think Johnny Moss was a bad limit poker player.

[ QUOTE ]
Has Ray Zee ever won a major poker tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think poker tournaments are the appropriate metric for poker skill? FWIW Bob Ciaffone calls Ray Zee one of the top dozen poker players in the world in his (non-2+2) No-Limit and Pot-Limit book.

[ QUOTE ]
For golf....who the hell is Tom Watkins? Watson? whatever...Don't you have to be known to be over-rated?

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Do you seriously not know who Tom Watson is? The guy has won eight majors. If you don't know him, then your credibility re: golf is pretty much zero.

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I freely give you that I know little about golf, but I know who Arnie Palmer, Sam Sneed, Jack, Tiger and several current players...no, I never even heard of that guy, but I think you have to be known to over-rated. Obviously, he is well known, but I'm unfmailiar with him, which was my point.

I wasn't attacking Zee, himself as a player or his qualifications as an author. I never heard any pros say anything about him at all in the dozen or so books I've read on poker, never heard him mentions on telecasts and have, in general, been unable to find any information on him online. That was my point too, which was missed by you, I think. I didn't know the golfer, but don't you agree I could almost certainly find infomration about his accomplishments? I still think that Stu can not be considered over-rated since many people are not listing him as one of the greatest ever, and he quite possibly could have been an all time great. He had unmistakable talent, a prodiguous ability in playing cards. The reason we aren't lauding him with Doyle-like awe and respect is he lived his life so very fast and had an entire host of addictions and other problems. I don't even dispute him being a net loss player. I think it would be difficult indeed to reamin in the black with so many addictions and problems he had. Johnny Moss...again, I go with Doyle on that. I have only supported his abilites as a NLHE player...Doyle never mentinoed him, as I recall, doing well in limit.

No, I don't thnk that poker tournaments are the appropriate metric for the skill level of a given poker player. I would have liked to been able to find more information, like Bob Ciaffone's quote about Zee. I looked for information, just couldn't find it.

Apparently, I need to re-iterate, I'm not attacking Ray Zee. I think he's completely off-base on that list for the most part though. And information about him wasn't easily accessable, so...I couldn't cofirm or deny anything about him as a player himself.

[iraise50]

Thanks for the link dogmeat. It was entertaining and interesting.

[Evan]

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Where does Ray play?

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I don't think he plays much any more. I've heard of him playing on trips to the Commerce and Lucky Chances.

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What Limits?

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Recently I've heard of him playign the 10/10/20 40 to go NL game at Lucky Chances and whatever the biggest NLHE and stud games are at Commerce.

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What do his peers think of him?

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I don't know, but Ray used to play the equivalent of today's 'big game' (4k/8k) in the 70's (I think). The man seems to have more money than he knows what to do with, so I'm going to assume that his peers think he's pretty damn good.

[turnipmonster]

does your magical power over bartenders work outside of nyc?

[Ray Zee]

zetack, yea she was outstanding and definetly underrated. i raced the butterfly when i was a swimmer, but i was only average at it.

what some have missed is that being really good or having won alot of things means you are good. being over rated has nothing to do with how good you were, it has to do with how you are rated. big difference.
i like to throw out some thoughts to generate comments from time to time. although i dont believe i make wrong assumptions often. i might agree on mark spitz somewhat and tom watson certainly was one of the all time greats but i tend to think overrated. i stand by my others.

[augie00]

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i played many many times with him as far back as 1970. i posted a few times what i thought about his play.

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I can't believe that you slipped my mind.