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  #1  
Old 03-11-2004, 06:28 PM
CrisBrown CrisBrown is offline
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Default Bad play or bad beat?

Hi All,

$55 SNG, very early (blinds are 15/30), and I have a middle-ish stack (~1850). In in the BB with 85s. UTG limps, MP limps, SB limps, I check. (Pot=120)

Flop is J-8-5 with two clubs (I have diamonds), giving me bottom two pair against a possible club flush or straight draw.

SB checks, I bet 100. UTG folds. MP raises to 240. SB folds. I know MP pretty well, and I'm sure he'd have raised pre-flop with JJ, and 88 or 55 are very unlikely. So I don't think he has a set. Probably AJ, KJ, or he's semi-bluffing a club flush draw. In short, I'm pretty sure I have the best hand at this point.

I push in, and he calls with KJ. He hits another J at the river, and I'm out in 14th.

Should I have just called at the flop and pushed at the river (which was 2s)? I don't know. I think I played it pretty well, and he caught a five-outer. But I'd love to hear if others would have played it differently, and how I might have avoided this.

Comments?

Cris
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  #2  
Old 03-11-2004, 06:39 PM
La Brujita La Brujita is offline
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Default Re: Bad play or bad beat?

I think you played it fine and your opponent played it poorly. One thing to consider, just as you know MP well, he probably knows you well and knows you are very aggressive and bluff a good bit. This hand might be an example of where it is good to have a tight image.
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Old 03-11-2004, 06:39 PM
Stagemusic Stagemusic is offline
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Default Re: Bad play or bad beat?

At the risk of being branded as mean...Please explain further...

[ QUOTE ]
I push in, and he calls with KJ. He hits another J at the river, and I'm out in 14th.

Should I have just called at the flop and pushed at the river (which was 2s)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Was it a J or a 2? Doesn't really matter, I assume the J was on the turn and you just copied it down wrong...happens all the time to me too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


In either event, I would have just called on the flop and if the J hit on the turn which I think is what happened I probably would have checked/folded. JMO.

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Old 03-11-2004, 06:44 PM
CrisBrown CrisBrown is offline
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Default Re: Bad play or bad beat?

Hi Stage,

Sorry, I mistyped. Flop was J-8-5. Turn was 2s (should I have called pre-flop and pushed here?). River was the J.

Cris
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  #5  
Old 03-11-2004, 06:50 PM
CrisBrown CrisBrown is offline
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Default Re: Bad play or bad beat?

Hi LaBrujita,

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played it fine and your opponent played it poorly. One thing to consider, just as you know MP well, he probably knows you well and knows you are very aggressive and bluff a good bit. This hand might be an example of where it is good to have a tight image.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be true, but I really don't mind a call from KJ here, do I? Obviously I do if a K or another J hits -- as it did here -- but I'm a 3:1 favorite at the flop. (I ran it through twodimes.net.)

I dunno. I welcome more feedback.

Cris
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  #6  
Old 03-11-2004, 07:20 PM
CrisBrown CrisBrown is offline
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Default Re: Bad play or bad beat?

Hi All,

I think in retrospect, I should've called at the flop (when I was a 3:1 favorite), and pushed at the turn (when I was a 9:2 favorite). I'm not sure it would have had a different outcome, but I'd have been a bigger favorite when the money went in.

Cris
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  #7  
Old 03-11-2004, 07:32 PM
triplc triplc is offline
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Default Re: Bad play or bad beat?

This was clearly a bad beat, but I think it brings up an interesting point, and that is, when to put all of your chips at risk.

Sure, it's possible that by calling he hits his J, or the club or straight draw that is showing on the board, but the odds are still with you that you will have the best hand after the turn. If the turn was scary, you can get away and still fight another day. On the nonscary turn, you can then push in and have less of a shot to get outdrawn.

I am beginning to believe that pushing in should be used when absolutely necessary, or when it is terribly compelling to do so. What would a reraise to 480 have done to him? Now, he's not guaranteed to see the 5th card, and you are representing a very strong hand.

I want to reiterate that having all your chips in as a 3-to-1 favorite is a good thing, but getting out drawn without having all your chips in play is a whole lot better. I hope I've conveyed myself well, otherwise I can already feel the flames...
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  #8  
Old 03-11-2004, 07:43 PM
jaydoggie jaydoggie is offline
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Default Re: Bad play or bad beat?

when i flop bottom two, i generally OVER bet the pot. i dont want anyone to see the next card cheap because your hand is good but still vulnerable.

i say push on the flop. why? you dont know hes holding KJ. you imagine a jack but it could be. J9, JT,QJ,KJ,AJ. now youre not gonna push when a 9,T,J,Q,K,A falls OR a club? theres too much second guessing. push it in when you KNOW youre ahead. or atleast when theres a strong possibility.
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  #9  
Old 03-11-2004, 07:46 PM
jaydoggie jaydoggie is offline
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Default Re: Bad play or bad beat?

i disagree. read my post. sure you push when it *isnt* a scare card. but reevaluate the scare cards. any club, any high card, and alot of low cards (straight possibilities)

if he wants to draw let him draw for all his chips. becuase once you check, youre giving up on the hand. hes going to bet his position and probably assume his hand is good anyway.
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  #10  
Old 03-11-2004, 07:52 PM
heyrocker heyrocker is offline
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Default Re: Bad play or bad beat?

[ QUOTE ]
This may be true, but I really don't mind a call from KJ here, do I? Obviously I do if a K or another J hits -- as it did here -- but I'm a 3:1 favorite at the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have taken an attitude lately towards SNGs where if I'm confident that I'm a 2:1 or better favorite in the first 1-3 rounds I'm happy to push it in and let nature take its course. Take a situation where you have two pair or even tptk against someone you know has a four flush but nothing else. You face this a lot in lower limits where people love playing any two suited. I push with my two pair.

If he folds, fine. I got whatever was on the table.

If he calls my all in, then two times out of three I double and one time I lose (ignoring for the moment any other incidental wins/losses that might arise.) I'm going to get in the money the vast majority of the times I double which will more than make up for the time I lose. Plus some percentage of those times I won't actually lose, I'll just be left shortstacked, and since its early this can be built back up again. AND even if I lose, I only wasted ten minutes at the table rather than an hour. This all holds even more true for your example, where you're doubling 3 times out of 4.

In a multi its different, and this I have determined is one of my weaknesses in multis. I'm too anxious to take these chances and I'm too used to coasting after them. However in the SNGs you can play a lot more, its way less volatile, and I'm happy to let the odds work themselves out.

More considerations: The later it gets in the SNG the less and less likely I am to take these kinds of chances for all my chips. Also remember I'm playing a lower limit ($20 + $2) and I'm much more likely to get calls from weaker hands. I don't know what the situation is at your level. And of course if the hand you make is a monster instead of a good but possibly vulnerable hand like low two pair, the situation changes as well.

I guess thats a long winded way of saying, yeah, you shouldn't mind a call from KJ here.
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