Free Markets and Prisons

This whole tookie deal has got me thinkin' about our domestic prisons lately, the relative simplicity of their function, the shortages of space they currently face, the burden they pose to taxpayers, and the monopoly the state has over their utilization.

States typically step in and provide desired goods and services where the market "fails". Law and order is a necessary good that is universally demanded, and it is simply easier for a state to provide this good to the public, paid for by the public tax. And prisons are of course a subset of law and order. But could the government supplement the law and order it provides with a little bit of free market action? This certainly exists to some extent, with private investigators, defense attorneys, and security contractors to name a few. Has the free market for holding inmates in cages ever been tested?

The function of a prison is simple - to remove convicted criminals from a law abiding society, thus removing their danger to that society. You house inmates, who have forfeited their rights to freedom, inside cages and feed them three times a day until their sentence is up.

And clearly this opens up a new private industry in America. There is a demand for more prisons, and were the supply able to meet the demand, more jobs would be created. Efficiency and cost competitiveness of the private sector would lower the cost to the state (who would be the sole customer of the prisons), not to mention more tax revenue would be received from the additional jobs and the corporate profits.

Anyways, what are peoples' feelings on the benefits and costs of this exercise in free market? (in terms of effectiveness, efficiency, eliminating shortages, tax burden, etc) Am I on the ball here, or am I way off, and why?

[The Don]

You sir, are on the ball. Here is some reading on the subject. Of course, if the market is going to take over incarceration, why not have it take over law enforcement and the administration of justice as well?

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
States typically step in and provide desired goods and services where the market "fails"

[/ QUOTE ]

I would only point out that states don't sit around and wait for market failures before 'stepping in'. States generally create any market failures.

natedogg

[sam h]

Private prisons already operate in many states. I don't know enough about them to have an opinion either way, but I do know that they have been heavily criticized by groups advocating for prisoners' rights.

[peritonlogon]

[ QUOTE ]
You sir, are on the ball. Here is some reading on the subject. Of course, if the market is going to take over incarceration, why not have it take over law enforcement and the administration of justice as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

These are all really really bad ideas...Why do so many people have such a boner for the "free" market now anyway?
Free markets do NOT increase effeciency and reduce costs in many sectors of human interaction. Many prison functions now are outsourced to private firms with dismal results...

See, the problem with using markets with prisons is with whom are they competeing? for whose benefit? who gets the service? And what happens is, since it is the prisoners who are being fed and receiving the medical treatment, and, since they're prisoners, they have no say whether or not their treatment is satisfactory, can do nothing, and therefore have no recourse. Why feed them a full three meals a day when 2 or 1 will do? Does anyone on the outside really care if people are straved and/or not treated for sickness? Why even treat anyone? The privitazation of the health care in prisons is the primary reason that the Hepatitis epidemic is so out of control in prisons.

Remeber, the reason why competition works to increase efficiency is that the groups in competition compete to trade their good or service for the customer's money. Such is not the case in prison (they compete for public money and provide a service to prisoners), or most things where there is some sort of public good or public interest. The opposite happens, they comepte hard for money to run a prison, and do everything they can not to run it.

Privitzation is a big problem, also, with the caring for mentally/physically unfit people. Accros the country states have been closing their state hospitals and giving their patients over to the private sector... well, it usually cost more, while, the employees are not trained properly, and the service costs many people that which remains of their health.

And Law Enforcement privitized? are you mad? I hope you're joking. If Law enforcement were privately run you would have even more disparity between the justice dished out to different economic classes and different races. The phrase "Equal Protection Under the Law" would be nothing but a farce, instead of just largely one.

[ QUOTE ]
Private prisons already operate in many states. I don't know enough about them to have an opinion either way, but I do know that they have been heavily criticized by groups advocating for prisoners' rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, yes I see that now. I should have simply googled first and saved myself the thought process. doh!

[WillMagic]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do so many people have such a boner for the "free" market now anyway?
Free markets do NOT increase effeciency and reduce costs in many sectors of human interaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...have you actually taken an economics class? Ever? Because this is just silly. Feel free to provide evidence to prove your point.

[ QUOTE ]

Many prison functions now are outsourced to private firms with dismal results

[/ QUOTE ]

And you base this assertion on...what? Evidence? Logical reasoning? You provide neither. From what I've heard the case is exactly the opposite, but I freely admit that I'm not super familiar with the subject.

[ QUOTE ]

See, the problem with using markets with prisons is with whom are they competeing? for whose benefit? who gets the service?

[/ QUOTE ]

These are questions...not problems. Coherent logical argumentation does not appear to be your strong point.

[ QUOTE ]
And what happens is, since it is the prisoners who are being fed and receiving the medical treatment, and, since they're prisoners, they have no say whether or not their treatment is satisfactory, can do nothing, and therefore have no recourse.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is different from the status quo...how? The prisoners never have a say in how they are treated, regardless of whether the prison is state-owned or privatized.

[ QUOTE ]
Why feed them a full three meals a day when 2 or 1 will do? Does anyone on the outside really care if people are straved and/or not treated for sickness? Why even treat anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because, if you are a prison entrepreneur, the state won't do business with you unless your prison provides these services to prisoners.

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The privitazation of the health care in prisons is the primary reason that the Hepatitis epidemic is so out of control in prisons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Another assertion made without evidence or a logical argument. Feel free to refer us to a paper on the subject, or make a logical argument linking the privatization of prison health care to the spread of hepatitis.

[ QUOTE ]
Remeber, the reason why competition works to increase efficiency is that the groups in competition compete to trade their good or service for the customer's money. Such is not the case in prison (they compete for public money and provide a service to prisoners)

[/ QUOTE ]

You are contradicting yourself. How is the state not a customer? How are prison entrepreneurs not competing for the state's money?

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...or most things where there is some sort of public good or public interest. The opposite happens, they comepte hard for money to run a prison, and do everything they can not to run it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if an entrepreneur won't run his prison effectively, why on earth would the state keep contracting with him? Your argument, like many others you made in your post, lacks logic.

[ QUOTE ]
Privitzation is a big problem, also, with the caring for mentally/physically unfit people. Accros the country states have been closing their state hospitals and giving their patients over to the private sector... well, it usually cost more, while, the employees are not trained properly, and the service costs many people that which remains of their health.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yay, yet another assertion made without providing either evidence or a logical argument linking privatization with worse service.

[ QUOTE ]
And Law Enforcement privitized? are you mad? I hope you're joking. If Law enforcement were privately run you would have even more disparity between the justice dished out to different economic classes and different races. The phrase "Equal Protection Under the Law" would be nothing but a farce, instead of just largely one.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny that you actually kinda get it in this point. Equal protection under the law IS a farce under the status quo, and you realize this. And yet you attack private law enforcement for the same problem. Pot calling the kettle black, anyone?

Will

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
Free markets do NOT increase effeciency and reduce costs in many sectors of human interaction. Many prison functions now are outsourced to private firms with dismal results...

[/ QUOTE ]

A government outsourcing a function that it has claimed monopoly over is not the same as a free market in that area. Do you see why?

[peritonlogon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Free markets do NOT increase effeciency and reduce costs in many sectors of human interaction. Many prison functions now are outsourced to private firms with dismal results...

[/ QUOTE ]

A government outsourcing a function that it has claimed monopoly over is not the same as a free market in that area. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you're exactly right. But with prisoners, there simply can't be a free market, they aren't free, they don't choose whether they want patronize a prison or which prison to patronize, and they have no capital to trade with the people imprisoning them. Only some form of government imprisons people, which is why they have the monopoly.

[peritonlogon]

If this contained anything other than a bunch of ad hominem attacks, and claims that I'm wrong because I'm wrong then I would reply to what you had to say.