Free Markets and Prisons

[BCPVP]

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The point is that free markets won't be effective, since, in the case of prison healthcare, food, clothing and etc. the people receiving the service are not the one's paying for it. The one's providing the goods and services have an economic incentive to come as close to not fulfilling their contract as possible. And once the contract has been awareded the market is no longer free until the contract expires.

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(Scary, I'm sounding more like PVN! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img])
Why does the state not have such problems while the "free market" does? You never explained why a free market would be ineffective and the state would.

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It is different because in the case with outsourced provider the prisoner has no recourse AND the provider has an economic incentive not to the job.

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While I could be wrong as I'm not that well-versed on this subject, I doubt that a prisoner's legal right to sue over mistreatment disappeaers in a private prison. PVN would probably argue that under a totally state-free system, the prison has an excellent economic incentive to not mistreat the prisoners.

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The prisoner has no recourse so the state never really gets to know.

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See above. This would be true if the prisoner's right to an attorney is stripped in private prisons, and I'd have a hard time believing it is.

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The state may be the customer, but it is not the one receiving the goods or services.

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The service is keeping certain people away from the rest of society so they can't continue to hurt others. The state in this case desires this service and it's proven that firms exist that will provide it.

Sorry for butting in.

[peritonlogon]

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Why does the state not have such problems while the "free market" does? You never explained why a free market would be ineffective and the state would.


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The State would have as its mission objectives to serve Justice as opppesed to making money.
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While I could be wrong as I'm not that well-versed on this subject, I doubt that a prisoner's legal right to sue over mistreatment disappeaers in a private prison. PVN would probably argue that under a totally state-free system, the prison has an excellent economic incentive to not mistreat the prisoners.

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In all my life I have never heard of a prisoner suing for mistreatment by prisons. I'm no lawyer but I do know the exact rights and legal status varies from state to state. And as far as what the public thinks (which is usually what matters) they, due to a great media system, think prison is all weight lifting, cable TV and the occasional buggery.... what I mean by this is, people only really go by whatever stereotypes they have happened to hear. And I think PVN would have to agree that prison in itself is contrary to a state-free system.

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The service is keeping certain people away from the rest of society so they can't continue to hurt others. The state in this case desires this service and it's proven that firms exist that will provide it.


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The "service" is dispensing justice whatever that may mean. A large portion of prisoners are in jail for actions that many, if not most, people have comitted themselves (possession of an illegal substance). Most "state-free society" people do not deem these people to be a threat. But, either way, a person who has a 2 year sentence and is deprived of his freedoms has a right to eat and receive medical care BECAUSE he was placed in prison. As in, he/she committed a crime that we (the American people) deemed worthy of imprisonment for (in this example) 2 years, NOT, 2 years imprisonment, near starvation and next to no healthcare(which is likely to mean Hepatitis (choose your letter) and no treatment.

[BCPVP]

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The State would have as its mission objectives to serve Justice as opppesed to making money.

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I don't believe these are mutually exclusive.

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In all my life I have never heard of a prisoner suing for mistreatment by prisons.

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It happens. It depends on the state for exactly what rights you have, but it does happen.

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The "service" is dispensing justice whatever that may mean.

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I'd say there are several functions of prison. One would be justice (read punishment), one would be seperation from society (safety/punishment), and another would be rehabilitation. All of these are the :services" provided by prisons, to varying degrees.

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But, either way, a person who has a 2 year sentence and is deprived of his freedoms has a right to eat and receive medical care BECAUSE he was placed in prison.

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That's not very well worded. You don't "get" rights because you're imprisoned. You always have rights and always will, in prison or not. It's just some rights are limited.

[Il_Mostro]

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That's not very well worded. You don't "get" rights because you're imprisoned. You always have rights and always will, in prison or not. It's just some rights are limited.

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Is that really correct? On the street you don't have the right to eat. But when in prison you certainly have that right, they cannot starve you just because you don't have money to buy food.

I remember reading about medical treatment, which had the same sort of "problem". Uninsured you don't have the right to, for example, heart transplants, but in prison you did have that right because you are in care of the prison. I don't know if this is correct, but that was the gist of the article I read. There was some worry about that desperate people would commit crimes in order to be put in prison and recive a heart-transplant.

[BCPVP]

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Is that really correct? On the street you don't have the right to eat. But when in prison you certainly have that right, they cannot starve you just because you don't have money to buy food.

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Yes, I believe it is. Just like I have the right to breathe. Now this doesn't necessarily mean you can force others to feed you at your whim. In prison, the prison must either provide you with food or the means to acquire food because they have otherwise put you in a situation where you cannot acquire food on your own.

[Il_Mostro]

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breathe. Now this doesn't necessarily mean you can force others to feed you at your whim. In prison, the prison must either provide you with food or the means to acquire food because they have otherwise put you in a situation where you cannot acquire food on your own.

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Does this mean it would be legal for prisons in the USA to not hand out food, but instead operate a store where inmates can buy food, in case they have money, and if they don't they starve? Or am I misunderstanding you? This would certainly not be the case in Sweden, here prisons must provide food for any inmate.

[BluffTHIS!]

Chain gangs are the answer. Force them to work and hire their services out cheap to local businesses/sweat shops. Makes the prisoners pay for their incarceration and screws the unions. No downside there.

[peritonlogon]

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That's not very well worded. You don't "get" rights because you're imprisoned. You always have rights and always will, in prison or not. It's just some rights are limited.

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It's that it is poorly worded. The fact that the State has deprived a person of his natural ability to fend for his or her own needs gives the state the responsibility to look after them, which, in this case, I am calling a "right." (yeah, that's right "safety quotes")

[Il_Mostro]

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No downside there.

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I see a few

[BCPVP]

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Does this mean it would be legal for prisons in the USA to not hand out food, but instead operate a store where inmates can buy food, in case they have money, and if they don't they starve?

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ONLY if that prison also provided the prisoners with some sort of exchange that was of sufficient amount that they wouldn't starve if they chose properly. Like a store and the prisoners get a certain number of "dollars" per day.

Or they could just serve them food. Either way, because the prison is denying them any other way to get food, it is responsible for providing access to sufficient quantites of food.