Flopping a set and the board gets ugly

jskills · #1 08-25-2005, 01:40 AM

Table is fairly loosey goosey with many people seeing flops. BB how shown himself to be 25/10/2 over about 50 hands.

I'm wondering what people think of my turn donk. My plan was to check raise the turn, but I hated the turn card and felt like I needed to ensure it did not get checked around out of fear someone had a straight.

Thoughts?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls.

River: (13 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Rezman5 · #2 08-25-2005, 02:11 AM

I think if you are going to check this flop with this many people you should be doing so with the intention of check raising to thin the field. I like the rest though.

jskills · #3 08-25-2005, 09:37 AM

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I think if you are going to check this flop with this many people you should be doing so with the intention of check raising to thin the field. I like the rest though.

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Why thin the field on a drawless board like this (at the time of the flop at least).

ricdaman · #4 08-25-2005, 10:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
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I think if you are going to check this flop with this many people you should be doing so with the intention of check raising to thin the field. I like the rest though.

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Why thin the field on a drawless board like this (at the time of the flop at least).

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(A) The board is not drawless - anybody with a 7 has an open-ended str8 draw.
(B) Yes, you do not want to thin the field. You will only be thinning the field of thinks like AQo, which have zero chance of beating you. Anybody with a 7, as well as overpairs (which can beat you) will still call. In other words, you would only be thinning field of those people who can't beat you while those who can would remain. Thinning the field is a BAD idea.

nickg1532 · #5 08-25-2005, 10:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if you are going to check this flop with this many people you should be doing so with the intention of check raising to thin the field. I like the rest though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why thin the field on a drawless board like this (at the time of the flop at least).

[/ QUOTE ]

(A) The board is not drawless - anybody with a 7 has an open-ended str8 draw.
(B) Yes, you do not want to thin the field. You will only be thinning the field of thinks like AQo, which have zero chance of beating you. Anybody with a 7, as well as overpairs (which can beat you) will still call. In other words, you would only be thinning field of those people who can't beat you while those who can would remain. Thinning the field is a BAD idea.

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This is correct. The only hands you can protect against are hands that are drawing dead/very very thin. The hands you want to fold are almost never folding (except, maybe, gutshots, but trapping them for multiple bets certainly isn't bad). On the flop with a set you have the best hand AND best draw like 99.9% of the time, so if you're ever in doubt about which line to take, I wouldn't worry about protection. Take the line that gets the most bets in from the most number of people.

jskills · #6 08-25-2005, 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if you are going to check this flop with this many people you should be doing so with the intention of check raising to thin the field. I like the rest though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why thin the field on a drawless board like this (at the time of the flop at least).

[/ QUOTE ]

(A) The board is not drawless - anybody with a 7 has an open-ended str8 draw.
(B) Yes, you do not want to thin the field. You will only be thinning the field of thinks like AQo, which have zero chance of beating you. Anybody with a 7, as well as overpairs (which can beat you) will still call. In other words, you would only be thinning field of those people who can't beat you while those who can would remain. Thinning the field is a BAD idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. The only hands you can protect against are hands that are drawing dead/very very thin. The hands you want to fold are almost never folding (except, maybe, gutshots, but trapping them for multiple bets certainly isn't bad). On the flop with a set you have the best hand AND best draw like 99.9% of the time, so if you're ever in doubt about which line to take, I wouldn't worry about protection. Take the line that gets the most bets in from the most number of people.

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Not sure if you guys are agreeing with the check-raise the flop idea, but check raising the flop is awful here.

If you want to get the most bets in from the most number of peoeple, check raising directly after the preflop raiser bets and making the rest of the field face two bets cold is NOT the way to accomplish that. It makes them all fold and get the hand heads up. We do not want that on this type of flop.

The correct line, as pointed out by several posters (Shant, Entity) is to simply bet out on the flop, get everyone to call one bet behind you, and hope the preflop raiser will raise the flop, thus bringing the rest of the field along for another bet.

BTW: The flop can be considered drawless in that most people calling a preflop raise aren't entering with a 7 in hand. I was not concerned about anyone holding a 7 at all. It was when the 7 fell on the turn that things got interesting.

j0n_blayze · #7 08-25-2005, 02:12 AM

raise the flop.

jskills · #8 08-25-2005, 09:42 AM

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raise the flop.

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Why? Then it becomes 2-bets to the rest of the field who will likely fold. Bad idea.

Nick C · #9 08-25-2005, 03:58 AM

I would lead the flop, figuring I couldn't protect my hand very well anyway and I might as well start trying to build a big pot.

Nick C · #10 08-25-2005, 04:08 AM

On the turn, there are 46 unknown cards. There are also 10 cards (other than yours) that people found a reason to call with on the flop, and you're drawing if any of those 10 cards are one of the eight available 9's or 4's.

I actually think I might just check-call here. You may not get raised by a 4, but I'm worried a 9 is out there somewhere, and I think I'd like to see the river as cheaply as possible.

I'll admit, though, that it doesn't seem like a 9 was out there this time (or a 4, either).