10/20 Missed a bet; Best spot to raise?

raisins · #1 05-21-2005, 06:53 PM

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO :Villain calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO :Villain calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets, Villain raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villain bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villain bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

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OK, this hand was played badly. Lately I've been getting 3-bet too often on the expensive streets and not making lay downs and it's gotten me a bit gun shy. Reads: Villain played a lot of hands and raised a bunch of them too. He could lay down the worst of them but went a bit too far with the marginal ones.

Can we use this hand to talk about the benefits of 3 betting the flop vs raising the turn or river?

I put my thoughts on possible lines and the results in another post. I am just as interested if not more in your criticism of my comparison of the lines as the actual hand itself.

regards,

raisins

raisins · #2 05-21-2005, 06:54 PM

OK here are the alternate lines to this that I think are the most reasonable approaches.

If I 3 bet the flop and then I'm raised on the turn I think I can rule out AJ as he didn't raise coming in. I don't think he would check raise the turn after being 3 bet on the flop with less than two pair. 88 is another hand that would be raised. 83 is ruled out and I don't think he would check raise the flop with J8. With J8 I would expect him to either bet out or check call down. On the turn, if check raised, I'm getting 17 to 2, and his hand range is A3 (6 combinations) A8 (6 combinations) and 33 (3 combinations). I have no outs against the sets and at least 6 against the two pair. PokerStove says I win 1 out of 8 in this matchup so I can call and fold the river if I don't make two pair.

What about calling the flop check raise and raising the turn? I'm pretty sure that I have the best hand if we both only have one pair which will be the majority of the time. The raise on the turn though announces my hand as A big kicker and allows him to get off of his 3 outer which is his most common holding. If he is holding a big hand I'm going to be hit for another raise on the turn. I'll be getting the same odds as the preceeding line but I'll have put im more money on the turn where my hand's equity is worse. I'm not sure the hand range is the same either. I can imagine a laggy player, perhaps a little tilted, thinking I'm trying to resteal or whatever with an inferior hand to 1 pair of Aces and 3 betting me on the turn and blowing me off the hand on the river when I don't improve. This isn't a common scenario but I think it is more likely wih this line than with 3 betting the flop in the previous paragraph. I'm not sure I can justify this logically but it feels like I can lose an opponent I want to keep with this line and also get one to over represent to where I occasionally lay down the best hand.

So for these reasons, primarily putting more of my money in on the flop where my equity is better when I'm beat and the likelihood of keeping my opponent to showdown when I have the best hand I prefer 3 betting the flop.

I think raising the river is a real option here as well since neither the turn nor the river is likely to have made him a better hand. I can't see folding to a reraise. My main objection is that when I'm beat I put in 3 bets with no outs.

Which do you prefer? A different line, why? Do you get off the hand on the river if check raised or 3 bet on the turn? Do you go to showdown on this board regardless of the action?

regards,

raisins

P.S. Results:

Villain shows [ 2d, Ac ] a pair of aces.
Hero shows [ Ts, As ] a pair of aces.
Hero wins $173 from the main pot with a pair of aces with ten kicker.

marand · #3 05-21-2005, 08:42 PM

I would play this hand the same way you did. After the check/raise on the flop I would just call down and bet if checked to.

I would not be comfortable folding this hand on any street and I don't want to put myself in a difficult situation by raising and risking getting 3bet.

Not sure this is "correct" but thats the way I would play it.