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  #1  
Old 12-25-2005, 12:18 AM
DavidC DavidC is offline
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Default PF Decision: Facing a push

Full ring game, $25 nlhe: 6 limpers, I raise to $2 on the button. SB pushes for $30 total, I almost cover him. No reads. My cards are possibly: AA-TT, AKs, AKo, and AQs

Two questions:

1) Do you agree with my PF play? Are there hands in my range that you would limp with? Are there hands not included in my range that you would raise with? Did I raise an improper amount?

2) What would you guys do vs the push, with those hands that I listed?

I know it sucks that there's no reads... but I'm just trying to learn the basics here, not expert play just yet.

--Dave.
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  #2  
Old 12-25-2005, 12:41 AM
Iconoclastic Iconoclastic is offline
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Default Re: PF Decision: Facing a push

Call with AA-KK, assuming all the limpers folded.

No read, no bluff.
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  #3  
Old 12-25-2005, 12:43 AM
DJ Sensei DJ Sensei is offline
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Default Re: PF Decision: Facing a push

1) This is fine preflop play with all of the hands you listed, you could even raise more with them after that many limpers if you wanted to actually fold some of them out. (I would also make this raise with AQo, and AJ or 99 wouldnt be too far behind, although I think you'd get more value by just calling with 99.)

2) Call the push with AA and KK, obviously, and probably QQ as well. And to be honest, against an average NL25 opponent, i'd probably call with AK as well, because there are plenty of people who'll push AQ or worse in there in that situation. JJ is close to AK in that regard, but there are some stupid hands that you arent much ahead of here (AQ, KQ) and you're farther behind KK and QQ. I'd be more likely to fold JJ than AK.

3) Yea, it does suck to have no reads. but at this level, you don't really need them to cash in big. Just assume that everyone sucks until proven otherwise.
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  #4  
Old 12-25-2005, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: PF Decision: Facing a push

[ QUOTE ]
Just assume that everyone sucks until proven otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

right on
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  #5  
Old 12-25-2005, 06:21 AM
DavidC DavidC is offline
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Default Re: PF Decision: Facing a push

[ QUOTE ]
Call with AA-KK, assuming all the limpers folded.

No read, no bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, this isn't to belittle you or anything, since I'm just learning this myself... However, I have to check some assumptions here.

When we call the push with KK, we're assuming that he'll push with AA-QQ, AK, right?

---

Equity:
vs QQ = 82%
vs KK = 50%
vs AA = 18% (these three pulled from HOH)

vs AKo = 70%
vs AKs = 66%
vs any AK = 68.8% (these pulled from pokerstove)

---

Ways of making:
AA = 6
KK = 1
QQ = 6
AK = 8
Total = 21

AA = 28.5%
KK = 4.7%
QQ = 28.5%
AK = 38%

---

EV = 0.82*0.285 + 0.5*0.047 + 0.18*0.285 + 0.688*0.38
= 0.2337 + 0.0235 + 0.0513 + 0.26144
= 0.56994
=~ 57%

Obviously we're calling with AA, as it's the boss hand.

---

I woke up in the middle of the night, it's xmas, and I'm not sure I'm going to continue this analysis for AKo vs the AA-QQ, AK range, to see how it compares. I was really surprised that KK was as low as it shows it to be.

Edit: Hmm... DJ, should I add AQo to this list at something like a 20% chance?
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  #6  
Old 12-25-2005, 06:25 AM
Maulik Maulik is offline
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Default Re: PF Decision: Facing a push

DavidC,

Raise more than $2 w/ 6 limpers I make it at least $4.
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  #7  
Old 12-25-2005, 06:28 AM
DavidC DavidC is offline
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Default Re: PF Decision: Facing a push

[ QUOTE ]
DavidC,

Raise more than $2 w/ 6 limpers I make it at least $4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. My raise was a little light. I've heard 4bb+1per limper = 10bb = $2.50...

Why raise to $4 here? Is this an effort to give little pairs crappy odds and to prevent people from getting correct odds with hands like JTs by "schooling"?

--Dave.

Just for fun I'll share results, though this shouldn't sway the analysis: I call with JJ, opponent shows QQ, board is a flush, split pot! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
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  #8  
Old 12-25-2005, 06:36 AM
Maulik Maulik is offline
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Default Re: PF Decision: Facing a push

Raise to isolate. Once one fish calls.... you're toast. Additionally, your hands play best HU not multiway.
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  #9  
Old 12-25-2005, 06:47 AM
DavidC DavidC is offline
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Default Re: PF Decision: Facing a push

Thanks for your help.
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  #10  
Old 12-25-2005, 06:51 AM
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Default Re: PF Decision: Facing a push

[ QUOTE ]
Raise to isolate. Once one fish calls.... you're toast. Additionally, your hands play best HU not multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stole my reply! You can't run the risk of having the 1st guy call and 4 follow thanks to ridiculous odds. The 4+1 rule is a good framework, but its not a law by any means. If your goal is to get it heads up, get it heads up - make a raise that only big hands will call.
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