Live 5/10 w/ full-kill LO8 Mirage, turn re-raise good?

Kill-pot.

If any one here has ever played the 5-10 full kill at mirage, early in the morning, you are aware that it is the same table of elderly locals that apparently are in the game every morning or so. I had been in a 2/5 (500 max) nl game that was 4 handed for the last 7 hours, and since I had to check out in a few hours decided to finally play in the LO8 game. Apparently, it is only a go when they all show up at the same time, and I got berated for taking one of the usual suspects seat, by getting on the list early from my other game. Anyways, typical live lo8 table, 6-8 people to the flop, only one really active player, lots of passive low drawing going on. The table is full of the regulars, with me and another guy who was at my 2/5 table who migrated with me. He is primarily a 30/60ish limit hold'em player. I usually play holdem in casinos due to the softness of the games, but love limit o8 online and its my primary cash game online. (5-10 -> 10/20)

Heres the setup.

Stack sizes are relatively unimportant, everyone has at least 14 big bets in front of them. Oddly enough the table saw Hero move over and cash everyone in from his nl game when the table started out. Not sure what they would take of this, but Hero is still large stack at the table with ~20 big bets for a kill pot.

Hero is BB in a kill pot. kill button posted by utg+1, a pretty passive player who had only been betting out with a made wheel thus far in the game. Got nailed earlier by a quads over quads situation earlier and seemed to be a bit hot and eager to get some of that back.

dealt to hero: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

utg folds, kill poster checks, fold, fold, lady in seat 1 calls (she is the ultra passive player, actually called down with nut-nut scoop in a kill pot earlier for a big scoop), fold, the only minorly aggressive player at the table calls on the button, SB calls (LHE guy. He has shown to be a fairly solid player, in the nl game he had liked to bet big with both massive cards and pure air. I loved playing the he game with him, he was a total enigma.) Hero calls from the BB.

flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, Hero checks, kill poster checks, lady bets, button calls, sb calls, hero calls, kill poster folds.

turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB checks, Hero checks, lady bets, button calls, SB raises to 40, Hero raises to three bets, $60.


What do you feel about this raise? what is your range that you put everyone on? Given this range, what is your line of play? Bet out on the turn? fold somewhere?

I feel that this was a crazy game, as there was a 10 of spades in your hand and a 10 of spades in the flop.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you feel about this raise? what is your range that you put everyone on? Given this range, what is your line of play? Bet out on the turn? fold somewhere?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ben - I’m going to change the flop a little bit to
T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and leave everything else the same.

I get tired of answering sensibly and then seeing results where Hero would do best by playing like a maniac. I hope this is not another post where your opponents are all betting with crap and then playing like buffoons.

If not, I’d guess that SB is check-raising with a decent looking high hand. I think SB’s check-raise on the turn represents something like
Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Y.
If SB actually has that hand, SB wants to
• (1) knock out anyone with the king flush draw (Hero, as it turns out),
• (2) collect more when the board pairs on the river, and
• (3) also charge the low draws.
A difficulty for Hero is if SB does have the hand he’s representing with the check-raise, then if the board pairs tens and Hero makes a full house, Hero will be paying off to a better full house.

SB might not actually have a set of queens. Instead SB may just have the nut-spade draw plus straight and low possibilities - or maybe a hand similar to Hero’s. Perhaps the original better has the set. But in any event, I think SB probably has a decent high hand and if it doesn’t end up beating Hero at the showdown, it almost surely at least contains some of Hero’s outs, thus making it less probable for Hero to end up a winner.

Hero’s check-re-raise might possibly knock out both players behind him if (amazingly) neither of them has A3XY. However, I think at least one of the players behind Hero has A3XY and will call Hero’s bet. Assuming at least one of the players behind Hero does have A3XY, I think roughly two hands out of five probably both of them will have it and will call while the other three hands out of five only one of them will have it and will call.

However, if Hero makes it $60, I don’t see anyone chasing with (1) a non-nut low draw, (2) a non-nut spade draw or (3) a poor full house draw (like a set of sixes or deuces). Is that what Hero wants?

I have no idea if SB or one of the players behind Hero has the nut flush draw or not. I think most of the players in this game are probably going to see the flop with the suited ace of spades. There’s about one chance in three one of them was dealt the suited ace of spades, and if so, will be one of the players seeing the river with Hero. Hard to say exactly who might have the suited ace of spades if indeed any opponent does have it. Trouble is, if the board does flush on the river, Hero will be paying off with his 2nd nut flush about one third of the time (and winning the other two thirds of the time, but mostly for only half the pot).

Whoever has what, I’ll agree Hero has a decent draw after the turn and should not be intimidated by the double bet. But I’d feel a whole lot better about Hero’s chances without the check-raise by SB. Hero could get easily get caught with the second best high hand on the river.

If SB had not already check-raised, a check-raise from Hero might not be a bad play. However, the way things stand, I don’t think Hero’s check-re-raise will knock out the nut spade flush draw. Nor will it knock out somebody (presumably SB) who has a set of queens. It will only knock out opponents Hero should rather see chasing on the river.

Putting it all together, Hero probably does better against decent opponents by limping on the third betting round.

Just my opinion.

I've played in that $5/$10 kill game at the Mirage, but it's been a while and never in the morning. I currently like the Orleans better for Omaha-8 when I (occasionally) get to Las Vegas.

Buzz