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  #1  
Old 12-20-2005, 05:17 AM
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Default Preflop Suggestions

I've been playing LO8 for seven months now, and winning most sessions. The more I play though, the more I question my play. I'd like to ask a series of questions regarding scenarios, with today's being preflop play. I respect all opinions given, and hope that this sparks a little thought to all.
I consider myself a TAG, who might be a little too aggressive at times postflop. Please don't flame me for using this with my low sample size, but my PTO stats show that I've won $232 when I raise preflop (4.2%), as opposed to being down $96 when I enter a pot without raising. This is after 1400 hands at 2/4 and 3/6 limits.
Ok, on to the questions. In general when do you limp, call, raise, and reraise? Let's assume that all players at the $2/4 table are slightly loose and passive, hardly ever raising preflop.
Situation 1: You are dealt AA7Q ss in MP with one limper.
Situation 2: You are dealt AA23 ss in MP with one limper.
What if there was no limper?
Situation 3: JJQK ss in MP with one limper.
What if there was no limper?
Situation 4: A299 ss in MP with one limper.
Situation 5: A299 ss OTB with 3 limpers.
Situation 6: A2KK ss in MP with one limper.
What if there were no limpers?
Situation 7: A4JQ ss in MP with one limper.
Situation 8: A4JQ ss in LP with two limpers.

Each time you are suited it is to your ace.

Ok, so there are a million hands and scenarios that I could post and try to pick everyone's brain with, but I won't do that. I've read numerous times that you should raise to limit a field, because some hands play better with less players. The problem is, I think every hand is a drawing hand, so if my KKQQ flops K66, I'd rather not have raised so that I can take from the poor guy with K6xx. But if the flop comes 3,4,8, I can easily slip away.
Is any of this making sense? I see that by raising preflop the table automatically puts you on a strong hand and will fold to you postflop unless they hit something very strong. I see many players that win pots before the river because they raised preflop and made people think they had a premium hand.
If I'm in MP with A4xx ds, shouldn't I raise to try and knock out any A3's?
I have so many questions, please offer your advice!
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2005, 10:47 AM
Ironman Ironman is offline
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Default Re: Preflop Suggestions

Baxter,

Your final paragragh gets to the heart of the problem with playing limit O8 vs. pot limit O8 online. The pre flop rasies at 2/4 and 3/6 are generally not enough to make money when you limit the field because the hands that you raise with normally play very well with more players.

....should I really raise with AA23? Well, of course you want to get more money into the pot, but you need to decide if your table will call two bets cold to see a flop.

This is not a problem with pot limit.

Situation 1: muck
Situation 2: raise, you want to get out the middle junk
Situation 3: limp and get aggressive post flop when you hit
Situation 4: play very cautiously unless a nine flops
Situation 5: no different
Situation 6: limp then get aggressive post flop
Situation 7 & 8: We have entire threads dedicated to these situations as they can be very profitable, but very costly. I suggest a search back to about two months ago for the A 4 threads.

Hope that helps a little.

Dave
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  #3  
Old 12-20-2005, 01:47 PM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: Preflop Suggestions

Baxter - It's hard for me to answer your situation questions about when to raise before the flop. When I'm dealt cards I like, whether to raise or not is highly opponent dependent and also depends on how previous hands have been played.

[ QUOTE ]
I think every hand is a drawing hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. That's the nature of Omaha-8.

Even with AA23d, you need to get a favorable flop.

Then when you continue after the flop, assuming you play tightly after the flop, I think you're about six times as likely to still need a card on the turn or river as to have flopped a made hand. And even when you've flopped a made hand, you'll often have a re-draw. Thus you'll usually be drawing for a card after the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
if my KKQQ flops K66, I'd rather not have raised so that I can take from the poor guy with K6xx. But if the flop comes 3,4,8, I can easily slip away.
Is any of this making sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes perfect sense.

[ QUOTE ]
I see that by raising preflop the table automatically puts you on a strong hand and will fold to you postflop unless they hit something very strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Opponents do tend to be wary of your having a good starting hand when you raise before the flop. And then some of them are more prone to fold after the flop unless their hands fit very well with the flop. But others are more prone to continue because there's more money in the pot. My impression is it depends on the opponent.

[ QUOTE ]
I see many players that win pots before the river because they raised preflop and made people think they had a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's more possible in a tight game than a loose one. Intimidation is a chief reason to raise before the flop. But in a full limit ring game, it's usually difficult if not impossible to intimidate enough of your opponents to steal the blinds.

When you find yourself at a tight table (rock garden), your best option is probably to quit that table and find another table (a looser table). Trouble is, on-line some of your opponents may be playing in four games at once, possibly playing only premium hands and making the game expensive with them. In a brick and mortar casino, that strategy doesn't work as well as on-line. Depends, I guess.

It's important to note that there are different effective styles of play.

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm in MP with A4xx ds, shouldn't I raise to try and knock out any A3's?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You can raise with that hand, and if you do, you'll make play more difficult for your opponents (which is good). However, you're not likely to knock out anybody holding A3XY. Try it yourself and see if you don't believe me. You're not likely to knock out 23XY either - or even another A4XY. And you're certainly not going to knock out anybody holding A2XY, a hand you should expect to be facing roughly half the time when you end up on the river making a low with your A4XY in a full game.

But if you're always going to raise from mid position with A2XY, then also raising with A4XY tends to somewhat disguise your raises with A2XY hands.

I went through a phase a couple of years ago where I generally raised before the flop with A4XY hands. In my humble opinion you'll lose a lot more money than you'll win by playing that way.

[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing LO8 for seven months now, and winning most sessions.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can probably usually win at a loose low limit table simply by playing very tightly and having average poker skill, but you can't win much.

Winning, however, sure beats losing. If you're currently playing too tightly and if you expand your range of starting hands, you'll probably go through some losing sessions while you adjust.

Just my opinion.

Buzz
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  #4  
Old 12-20-2005, 02:49 PM
jthegreat jthegreat is offline
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Default Re: Preflop Suggestions

[ QUOTE ]
I see that by raising preflop the table automatically puts you on a strong hand and will fold to you postflop unless they hit something very strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true, you should be picking up tons of pots on the flop when others fold to your bets. If it really is happening that way, then you need to loosen your raising standards until you get optimum table action.
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  #5  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: Preflop Suggestions

Situation 1: You are dealt AA7Q ss in MP with one limper.
Fold.
Situation 2: You are dealt AA23 ss in MP with one limper.
What if there was no limper?
In both situations, Id raise if opponents are loose and wont fold to 2 bets cold often. If they are tight, Ill lip in. I want more money in the pot, but not at the expense of losing most of the players.
Situation 3: JJQK ss in MP with one limper.
What if there was no limper?
Limp, 50/50 Limp/fold.
Situation 4: A299 ss in MP with one limper.
Limp.
Situation 5: A299 ss OTB with 3 limpers.
Limp.
Situation 6: A2KK ss in MP with one limper.
What if there were no limpers?
75/25 Raise/Limp. Neither are bad moves.
Situation 7: A4JQ ss in MP with one limper.
Depends on the table.
Situation 8: A4JQ ss in LP with two limpers.
Depends on the table.

Alot of these are table dependant, even the ones I didnt label so.
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2005, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Preflop Suggestions

So anyone who knows hold 'em knows that KK plays better against a small field and 78s plays better against a large field. Do we have any general guidelines like this? I know that position/table image/player type (loose vs. passive) are all important, but are there any general rules? Just wondering.
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2005, 10:19 PM
SteveY SteveY is offline
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Default Re: Preflop Suggestions

can anyone link to the A4 thread? cant find it.
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  #8  
Old 12-21-2005, 07:09 AM
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Default Re: Preflop Suggestions

[ QUOTE ]
can anyone link to the A4 thread? cant find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think this is it:

A4 hands
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  #9  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:41 AM
chaos chaos is offline
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Posts: 370
Default Re: Preflop Suggestions

Keep in mind that the object of split pot games is to scoop the pot. So look for two-way potential in any starting hand.

Situation 1: You are dealt AA7Q ss in MP with one limper.
Fold, this hand has no low potential. 7s, 8s, and 9s are weak cards in Omaha/8.

Situation 2: You are dealt AA23 ss in MP with one limper. What if there was no limper?
Generally call. You would like to build a pot, not eliminate players.

Situation 3: JJQK ss in MP with one limper.
Call if the game is loose. You will only hit a high flop (one or no low cards) about one quarter of the time.
What if there was no limper? Generally fold unless there are many loose-passive players behind you.

Situation 4: A299 ss in MP with one limper.
Call. You have a good shot at low and the nut flush. You want to encourage second nut (or worse) draws to enter the pot.

Situation 5: A299 ss OTB with 3 limpers.
Call. If I had counterfeit protection from another good low card, I would consider raising.

Situation 6: A2KK ss in MP with one limper. What if there were no limpers?
Call

Situation 7: A4JQ ss in MP with one limper.
Fold

Situation 8: A4JQ ss in LP with two limpers.
Call
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  #10  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:48 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Posts: 598
Default Re: Preflop Suggestions

[ QUOTE ]
So anyone who knows hold 'em knows that KK plays better against a small field

[/ QUOTE ]

Baxter - I don't think that's quite correct, but this doesn't seem the proper forum to debate it.

[ QUOTE ]
Do we have any general guidelines like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) In a short handed Omaha-8 game, the high is most often won by two pair or trips. But in a loose full game, depending on what is enabled by the cards on the board at the river (and your opponents), the high is usually won by a straight or better.

(2) Starting cards that are more likely to end up making a non-nut hand than a nut hand do better against smaller fields than larger fields (because you’re less likely to run into the nuts held by an opponent).

Thus starting cards that end up making a high two pair or trips tend to do better in short handed games than in full games.

On the low side, starting hands with two wheel cards other than A2XY, A3XY, or 23XY tend to do better in short handed games. A3XY and 23XY may also do better in short handed games, depending on your opponents in a full game.

Buzz
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