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  #1  
Old 12-14-2005, 03:45 AM
elindauer elindauer is offline
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Default An odd hand... JTc UTG

I limp JTc UTG. Short stack limps behind with 2 BB left. Button limps, SB completes. BB raises, all call but the SB.

4 to the flop for 9 SB: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Jackpot.

BB bets. I call. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] short stack raises, he has $20 left. BB 3-bets. I call again. shortstack moves in for his last $20, which does not reopen the betting. We both call.

3 players, 1 all-in, for 9.5 BB: [A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets. I call again. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (blank)

BB bets. I call again. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]


Any thoughts on my play this hand?

thanks,
Eric
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  #2  
Old 12-14-2005, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: An odd hand... JTc UTG

I'll just get right to the meat of this issue. Should you raise the turn? call the turn? or fold the turn?
I would call down as you did and expect to lose and heres why. Basically the only hands you are ahead of are hands that the BB could possibly overplayed on that flop. Hands like: KdQd,KsQs,AdJd,AhJh,AdTd,AhTh.

The hands that make more sense given the BB's flop play are AA,KK,QQ,AK,AQ and you have zero to 1 out against all these hands on the turn. Even if you assumed that the BB would play all the overplayed hands the same as the logical hands you are still a 13-6 underdog. All you have here is a crying call on the turn and river. Your one glimmer of hope is that the BB was overplaying his hand cuz he knew he probably had the all-in guy beat. This is a decent possibilty, but it doesnt change your call down strategy to a raise situation, all it does is give you a chance, the odds are still against you. But the pot is large enough to call down.
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  #3  
Old 12-14-2005, 04:08 AM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: An odd hand... JTc UTG

1. I think the fact that shortstack is almost certainly going to commit his entire stack regardless of what you do and his all-in does not reopen the betting means that once the betting gets back around to you the second time you really need to cap it there. You're justing missing too much value if you don't.

I personally think it's better to just raise immediately. Anyone who likes that flop at all probably likes it quite a bit. You'll get called by pair+gutshot type hands. The hands that don't like the flop really hate it (hands like 88) and they aren't calling one bet so there's no concern folding them out right there. The short stack guy is going to put it all in if he has any kind of piece here anyway. The board likely hit the BB hard if at all and you really want to see this hand get three-bet and capped on the flop. (Allowing just one bet to go in on the flop if BB has AK, AQ, AA, KK, or QQ is losing ungodly amounts of value).

2. That turn sucks SO MUCH. Oh dear god it bites. I honestly don't like raising at this point. A BB raise is almost like a three-bet for a lot of players (I've seen one article advocate only raising out of the BB with AA and KK, for example). If you raise and get three-bet, it sucks because you should probably fold as you're drawing dead so much of the time but that's painful to do and you do have outs against hands like AJ or whatever and have that ever lovely Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] possibility. A lot of the hands you're beating at this point aren't paying off a raise anyway as that A looks as awful to them as it does to you.

3. The river is basically just an extension of the turn reasoning as the river changes nothing.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:44 AM
goofball goofball is offline
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Default Re: An odd hand... JTc UTG

Raise from the start and don't stop raisng the flop. You do have the nuts right?

Also, don't fold, god, if there were any spot to fold the nut straight thsi owuld be it, god that sucks, but don't fold. He could have AJs or JTs or some werid hand because he's weird and you don't know it. Riasing is spewing, folding is bleh.
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  #5  
Old 12-14-2005, 06:58 AM
lil feller lil feller is offline
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Default Re: An odd hand... JTc UTG

I think I like a flop raise, and if not certainly a flop cap. The short stack isn't folding, so making it 2 bets won't drive him out. Unless the BB has JJ, he has to love that flop, and will give you plenty of action.

While part of me thinks the turn card sucks, I'm also inclined to beleive that BB's river betting standards are lower then we might expect, as you never showed any strength. With out any information, I think I would call the turn, and raise the river, planning on calling a 3bet, but hating it.

Oh, I almost forgot, depending on the lineup and the PFR% of the table, I muck this preflop.

lf
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  #6  
Old 12-14-2005, 07:12 AM
bernie bernie is offline
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Default Re: An odd hand... JTc UTG

What happened to the button? Fold the flop?

I take it you were going to wait and blast the turn? Once the board pairs, you may as well call down.

b
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2005, 10:10 AM
piggity piggity is offline
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Default Re: An odd hand... JTc UTG

Hey elindauer,

You forgot to put one of those [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] faces next to your preflop limp, which I dislike.

Otherwise I actually like your play. That flop hit you so hard that I'd instinctively slowlplay it, too.
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  #8  
Old 12-14-2005, 12:09 PM
ErrantNight ErrantNight is offline
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Default Re: An odd hand... JTc UTG

what happened to your raise button?

edited to add: on the flop
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2005, 01:50 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: An odd hand... JTc UTG

[ QUOTE ]
Hey elindauer,

You forgot to put one of those [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] faces next to your preflop limp, which I dislike.

Otherwise I actually like your play. That flop hit you so hard that I'd instinctively slowlplay it, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with the pre-flop limp? Limping is MUCH better than raising here, in my opinion, as it tends to encourage multiway action which is what you need to even make this hand playable in the first place. Folding is an option at a very tight table but with correct post-flop play I'd say that limping this UTG is profitable at a good majority of tables. (I'd only fold if I knew I was very unlikely to get more than 2 or 3 opponents and figured to be isolated very, very often... though if that were always the case I'd probably find a new table anyway.)
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2005, 05:46 PM
elindauer elindauer is offline
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Default Re: An odd hand... JTc UTG

[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to put one of those [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] faces next to your preflop limp, which I dislike.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah yes, the preflop limp. Usually I raise, rarely I fold, here I limped. However, I think that a good argument for usually folding can be made in these aggressive games, and rarely raising, as a default play. JTs is a trouble hand for me in general, so if you have any suggestions beyond just not liking it, I'm interested.

thanks,
Eric
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