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  #1  
Old 12-21-2005, 01:02 AM
elitegimp elitegimp is offline
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Location: boulder, CO
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Default How good is an underboat in this game?

A little disclaimer (in four parts):
(1) I'm very interested in learning to play O/8, but I'm extremely bad at this game
(2) I'm mostly concerned with my river play, but I doubt I played any of the other streets correctly (okay, maybe the flop was right [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])
(3) I'm converting by hand, hopefully it'll be readable
(4) I've been drinking a little tonight

No reads (see #4), Limit O/8 ($0.50 / $1), 9-handed

Hero is MP2 with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Preflop:
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB checks

Flop (6 players, 6 SB): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, SB calls, BB calss, UTG calls

Turn (5 players, 8 BB): J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, SB raises, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 3-bets, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls

River (4 players, 20 BB): J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls

Final Pot: 24 BB

So after the turn action, it looked like I was up against 1 (or 2) straights, but I thought I had 10 outs to fill up and beat the straights. Once I filled up on the river, though, I started wondering why UTG was cold-calling, and was suddenly afraid of him having KJ or J7 (J9 was possible too, I suppose, but very unlikely given my hand and the board).

So on to my question (in two parts):
(1) Should I really be seeing the river with this hand?
(2) If so, what is the proper river action given that I have an underboat?

Like I said, I'm new to this game and [clearly] not very good... so brutal honesty about how bad I am is expected (and accepted).
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2005, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: How good is an underboat in this game?

Rules #1, #2, and #3:

Fold this hand pre-flop.
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  #3  
Old 12-21-2005, 02:06 AM
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Default Re: How good is an underboat in this game?

Your biggest mistake is calling preflop. You should really fold this preflop. 35 will rarely make the nut low and 99 will rarely give you top set. As you can see from this hand, even if you hit the set there are many times where you cannot drive the action to win extra bets.

I like the raise on the flop to test if you are ahead. Since everyone just called, you are certainly ahead.

The turn is where you must make your hardest decision.
There are a few players yet to act behind you and the J may have made someone a straight, so a check may not be a bad decision. The check raise on the flop by the small blind means you are behind. Unfortunately you are squeezed between two raisers and may have to pay 4 bets on the turn to see the river. You paid 3BB to get 17BB by the river card and have 10 outs to make a full house or quads (~20% chance of hitting). So, you have the odds to call IF your boat is a winner. My guess is that since the SB and MP3 bet,raised,3bet the turn, they have a straight. But they might have a hand like KQJT... and you are big trouble.

The check/call (instead of betting) on the river is probably correct since your boat is kind of weak but the pot is huge. The action on the turn is a big scary.

This hand really illustrates the dangers of pairs like 99 and lower in O8. Remember, O8 is a game of nut hands if you are multiway.
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  #4  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:04 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Posts: 598
Default Re: How good is an underboat in this game?

[ QUOTE ]
(1) Should I really be seeing the river with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gimp - Yes. (I would).

[ QUOTE ]
(2) If so, what is the proper river action given that I have an underboat?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this particular case, I like your check/call.

Buzz

Let me add that I agree with Niss and mostly agree with Ape Attack.
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  #5  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:30 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 598
Default Re: How good is an underboat in this game?

[ QUOTE ]
I like the raise on the flop to test if you are ahead. Since everyone just called, you are certainly ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ape Attack - I like the raise too. I think Hero gets a better idea of where he stands and also seizes the initiative. In addition, I think Hero should charge the backdoor low draws.

I disagree with "you are certainly ahead." (There's still a fair chance an opponent has a set of kings). Instead I think Hero is <font color="white">_</font>probably ahead.

Buzz
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  #6  
Old 12-21-2005, 01:41 PM
elitegimp elitegimp is offline
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Default Re: How good is an underboat in this game?

Thanks for the replies everyone. I guess I was still stuck in a hold 'em mentality, where any pair is worth playing in hopes of flopping a set. Suppose I have a hand like this one, a pair and some low cards. How big of a pair or how should the low cards be before I consider playing? Or, better yet, what's a good resource for pre-flop O/8 play?
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  #7  
Old 12-21-2005, 01:59 PM
SteveY SteveY is offline
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Default Re: How good is an underboat in this game?

www.o8poker.com
annie duke's articles specifically for preflop (o8poker.com has a link)
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  #8  
Old 12-21-2005, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: How good is an underboat in this game?

underboats are lethal, dude.

you'll be sittin there with trips, counting up the money in the pot that's about to be yours, and all of a sudden BAM your opponent tables pocket deuces for the underboat. POTENT.
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  #9  
Old 12-21-2005, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: How good is an underboat in this game?

Whoops. 'probably' is a better word than 'certainly'. I meant probably. In my experience, 90+% of the players in this situation would reraise with a set of Kings.
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  #10  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: How good is an underboat in this game?

River......hero.......raises.

You're last to act, MP3 has Q-10 and SB probably has the same. SB raises this with a full on the river, you're good here often enough to raise the river.
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