Raise This Flop with Nut Flush Draw?

directscooter · #1 07-27-2005, 10:11 AM

Have been running bad lately and moved down to NL 25 for the next 8-10k hands to work out any kinks in my game.
One of my major weaknesses is playing anything to do with flushes, I hate drawing with them, and then making them and not getting paid off, however I know that it is a part of the game I must start using better.

NL $25
Hero $63
Villain $25 (First hand at the table, isn't that always the way?)
Other guy $30ish (Nothing I have really noticed so far, playing too many hands but besides that has not stuck out)

Hero is on Button with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Villain raises to $1 (First hand so could be monsters, could be junk but I will have to give it some respect), Other guy calls $1, MP calls, I call, everyone else folds.

Flop $4.35 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain checks, Other guy bets $4, I....?

My thoughts are I always hear about raising in this position, but afterwards I ran the numbers through my head and thought, what is calling me here that I am better than a coin flip against. Seems like everything that is calling, 7x, Qx, any pocket pair above 3's all have me in a coin flip at best, and an underdog in many, so I am looking at some fold equity, but mostly from the hands that are not strong. AA, KK, QQ, AQ ,77, any unlikely two pair are not folding and are all at best a coin flip, but I am beat by many of them. By doing that I may also let a smaller flush draw, AK, AJ, AT, etc off the hook.
If you do raise here, what would you make it, I was thinking $12....

I just called, Villian called as well.

Turn ($16.35) A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villain bets $2, Other guy folds, I...?
I have two pair, and can beat a good amount of Villains holdings, and even if he had AQ, AA, I would still have outs to the flush, so since he only has like pot sized bet left, I am thinking I should put him all in, no?

Please flame away on my play, my thinking, etc.

Finite_Risk · #2 07-27-2005, 10:49 AM

if you hadn't pushed the flop, push the turn

EchoOfThunder · #3 07-27-2005, 10:54 AM

first, i would have folded preflop.

second, calling on the flop is ok, you dont need to raise. you can figure yourself for 14 outs and youre getting 2:1, and since you have position, you can just raise on a later street.

third, id raise the turn big. villain probably only has about 18 after his turn bet (which is ridiculously small which either shows a LOT of weakness, a LOT of strength, or a huge fishy player), id make it 10 on the turn, see how he reacts. i think youre ahead, but if you arent, you have outs.

i find it really strange how this hand was played. original raiser checks calls the flop then leads the turn when an ace hits, and his lead on the turn is so weak.

theordinaryboy · #4 07-27-2005, 11:00 AM

i dont mind your call pre-flop but i would prefer it if there were 4 or 5 other people in the hand with A3s rather than 3.

On the flop i think you give good reasoning and i think you played it ok. Especially because (perhaps omnipotently) i thought villain was gonna call other guys bet. Making your drawing odds better.

On the turn i think you've got to raise, you could easily have the best hand and like you said if not you have those flush outs. If your going to raise any decent raise makes villain pot committed if he calls it so i suppose you have to force him all-in, imo anyway.

It'll be interesting to see what he had.

swolfe · #5 07-27-2005, 11:05 AM

i'd call the flop in this case because the preflop raiser's check is suspicious. it's either a missed AK or QQ. no way does AA/KK check here first to act, and i think AQ would bet to protect from the flush draw. the bettor probably has a Q...possibly a lower flush draw.

raise the turn, villain has $18 left after his bet. i'd make it $11 to go and get his last $9 on the river.

directscooter · #6 07-27-2005, 11:18 AM

Usually I would fold preflop but with 3 guys in, all with at least $25, and in position, I thought I had pretty good implied odds to bust him if I hit (kinda like a small PP), and could easily get away if the flop missed.
I was inspired by Fim's post to try this, and it showed me why it can be a very good play, every once in a while.

directscooter · #7 07-27-2005, 11:20 AM

Swolfe I was right there with you on the flop. Kinda thinking I may be looking at QQ, and if I raised, he may go all in, and I may not have odds to call.

directscooter · #8 07-27-2005, 12:43 PM

Thank you guys for your responses, I am glad to see I have somewhat of an understanding of this. I thought I may be missing the benefit of raising the flop.

Like I said I pushed him all in.... he called with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so I was way ahead....

In this situation raising the flop would have probably folded both opponents, but waiting for the A put me in a good spot with a lot more money to be had.

Thanks.

swolfe · #9 07-27-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said I pushed him all in.... he called with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so I was way ahead....

[/ QUOTE ]

AK has 8 outs to beat you...2 non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K, 3 Q, and 3 sevens. Not exactly way ahead, but close enough.

directscooter · #10 07-27-2005, 01:58 PM

I guess it wasn't close enough, hit a 7 on the river, I was trying to fool myself by being overly positive. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Which reminds me.... one of the things I liked about bodog, was that if there is an all in, with no side pot, etc they flip the cards over...before dealing the rest, the extra 3 seconds kills me!!!