$200 NL, getting tricky/stupid with suited connectors.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I think that people in these games will have a very hard time getting off of an overpair to a real check/raise. Personally, as I've stated in previous threads, I fold one pair to any flop check/raise in these games exactly because people are attracted to your line of play. I am 100% folding to your check/min-raise on the flop even with AA here, FWIW. If you think that's too weak, please take a look in PT at all the times you check/raised the flop with less than one pair. My line would be to either lead the flop or more likely c/c the flop (trying to cash in on a continuation bet) and then lead the turn for half pot. I'm not worried about Ax[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] here since it has so few combinations in comparison to all his other possible holdings. I'm also not worried about him hitting a two outer. So do what you can to get the money in.

But your line is the worst possible line to get money in. If someone will call a min-c/r they will call a bigger one. And c/r is the scariest move in poker. Why freak someone out when you want to get money in? I think the least threatening line is c/c flop, lead turn. And with the draws out there, I think an overpair pushes on the turn at least 75% of the time and probably calls 20% of the time. Then you push the river.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
(pot=28, your raise=26)

[/ QUOTE ]
pot = 54, raise = 13. Do you play poker?

[EchoOfThunder]

The best way to be paid off is to lead the flop.

Let's assume he's a good player.

Scenario 1: He has AA, KK, QQ

You min check raise him. He calls the 13 more on the flop to get a better read on you and maybe get some help, you bet 50 on the turn, hes gone. He thinks 2 pair, set, his overpair is no good. You make 26 dollars post flop on him (assuming he even calls the check raise). If you check raise to 50, he might fold. If he thought he was good here he would have pushed on this street.

Let's say you lead the flop for 15. He reraises to 45. You then push, he's out. You make 45 off him post flop.

Scenario 2: He has AK diamond, or some other draw like JT on this board.

You check, he bets 13 to semi bluff, you check raise to 26, and now he has 4:1 pot odds for his draw. If youre going to check raise you want to make it higher because of this situation. You have to raise the pot here, make it unprofitable for him to call.

If you lead the flop here with a pot sized bet you make it unprofitable for him to call. Sure you win more money by check raising in this scenario but you cant assume he has a draw and that he will semi bluff with it.


Neither of these lines match what the player did. So I assume he had JJ and you lose this hand. If you had put in a real check raise on the flop then he might have folded his jacks. If you led the flop and he just calls, then he pushes on the turn, well you have to deal with that when it comes. But if you lead the flop, he reraises, then you push, youre definitely ahead at this point. The goal is clearly to get your money in while youre ahead, and the best way to do that is by leading the flop.

[jonnyUCB]

whats wrong with c/r'ing to cash on a continuation bet.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
whats wrong with c/r'ing to cash on a continuation bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's them off the hook too easily. As I said above, I'm folding to a c/r. But I'm probably pushing if you c/c flop, lead turn. Because that looks more like a draw or top pair. C/r flop screams the fact that you can beat a high pair.

[rydazzle]

my bad, raise should have been 54 - its early for math... simmer down.

my point was to give villain 2:1 on the check raise.

[The Deuce]

To the guy who asked if I do this all the time, no. I do it very occasionally in situations where I can confidently put my opponent on a certain range of hands, particularly hands like high PPs which are hard for a lot of people to get away from. I'm risking five bucks to get his whole stack.

The main problem with check calling the flop and leading the turn is that I risk a whole bunch of scare-cards coming that will stop this guy from putting his money in. The check-raise is scary sure. He could interpret it as strength or me trying to milk him, but it can also look a lot like I'm trying to define his hand without investing too much. Reason being that leading out, he can raise me with a much larger range of hands than he can re-raise me with after the check-raise. Plays like this aren't completely unheard of. If it gets to the river, and he doesn't improve, I think I'll have a very hard time getting paid off.

And I've check-raised the flop with less than two pair plenty of times, but then I seem to check-raise more than is good for me. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[TheWorstPlayer]

You're saying that you are expecting him to think that you are thinking that a min-c/r is a cheaper way to find out where you are than just leading out for fear of his raising you with a worse hand if you just lead out. And then you expect him to come over the top of your check/raise with an overpair. That doesn't make sense. If he has an overpair and he puts you on a one pair hand, trying to figure out where you are, he is not going to come over the top to let you fold, he will utilise his position and smooth call so that he can get you to invest more money on the turn. And since you would know this, you would know that the min-c/r line does NOT let you find out where you are cheaply with top pair unless you are planning on c/f the turn. But against an opponent who can raise you on the flop with unimproved AK, I don't see how you can c/f the turn simply because he called your flop min-c/r. So you are still stuck.

It seems to me like your thoughts are a little bit jumbled here. I think that if you try writing down what you think villain is thinking and what you think villain thinks you're thinking, you will see that your line is not really the best line for any card/thought combinations for villain unless you think he is thinking on some super-high level whereby taking a bad line for you will be the best line for you because he will never expect you to take such a bad line. But that is really not a good idea to assume at SSNL.

[theben]

your flop play is awful. that checkraise-min doesnt do squat. lead the flop for about 15$ or checkraise to something more substantial. i prefer leading this flop because checkraising lets TT-AA off too easily

[theben]

your min checkraise isnt going to do that unless you are playing against a retard. what it is going to do is freeze up somebody and then put you in an awkard position should a bad turn fall. a flop lead will induce a raise from an overpair.