KJs in the monkey house

[bernie]

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Call, why the hell not. You have position, you have suited overcards. If the drunk asian re-raises and then the donk re-reraises, fold.

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Once you call for 3 bets cold, you don't fold when it is 2 back to you. If you're going to fold, you do it at your initial turn to act and assume it can easily be reraised behind you.

b

[bobbyi]

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i wouldn't cap.

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5 bets is the cap.

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Ugh. Having the straddle count towards the cap is laaaame.

[Dazarath]

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Wow it seems like the only one of you that has any brains is Joe tall...

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This statement was unnecessary and probably hasn't helped anyone to believe you know what you're talking about.

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The best play here is to fold and wait for a better chance.

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We're on the medium stakes forum; we should be beyond the level of "oh, this situation is too marginal, I'm going to fold and wait for a really +EV situation.". In a given situation, it's either +EV to play, or it's not. If it's +EV, we need to play no matter how small that EV is.

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You gotta remember that even though poker bobs excellent description using the terms 'retards' and 'fish' even they will find big hands time to time.

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So what? What's your point? That's like saying you shouldn't 3-bet AKo against a blind raiser, because "even people who raise blind get aces and kings sometimes." Poor thought process. The players in this hand have certain hand ranges for choosing their given actions. The straddler has any two cards, the next guy probably has some large range of hands, but excluding premium hands, as he did not raise, and the third guy has Ax+ 22+ with some other hands thrown in. The discussion isn't about whether we can find a better spot or not. We know we can. The discussion is about which of the 3 options (raise, call, fold) yields the most EV in the long run.

[slavic]

If you raise I think you'll pay 6 bets a fair amount of the time preflop, If you call in this type of game you may pay 6 bets a fair amount of the time also. I'm assuming 5 bet cap plus the straddle.

I don't really like the idea of playing hte hand in that situation if this is the normal texture of the game. We can afford to pass up some of the marginal edges at higher prices, for marginal edges at lower prices, or bigger edges at any price. Those will come more often.

[slavic]

[Quote] So what? What's your point? That's like saying you shouldn't 3-bet AKo against a blind raiser, because "even people who raise blind get aces and kings sometimes." Poor thought process. The players in this hand have certain hand ranges for choosing their given actions. The straddler has any two cards, the next guy probably has some large range of hands, but excluding premium hands, as he did not raise, and the third guy has Ax+ 22+ with some other hands thrown in. The discussion isn't about whether we can find a better spot or not. We know we can. The discussion is about which of the 3 options (raise, call, fold) yields the most EV in the long run.

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I would say playing AK vs a blind steal is quite a bit different than the situation presented. If we were to lock this game down to 1 hand then the obvious play is to make it 4 bets. The problem is that this is never the case.

Case in point: Let's flip a coin.

YOu will have an edge of $0.01 on Every coin flip and the bet size will be $1,000,000 oh an every now and then I'll offer a bet size of $1.

When will you play? Everything is +EV

[Dazarath]

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I would say playing AK vs a blind steal is quite a bit different than the situation presented. If we were to lock this game down to 1 hand then the obvious play is to make it 4 bets. The problem is that this is never the case.

Case in point: Let's flip a coin.

YOu will have an edge of $0.01 on Every coin flip and the bet size will be $1,000,000 oh an every now and then I'll offer a bet size of $1.

When will you play? Everything is +EV

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I think you're misunderstanding my point. I was trying to say that using the logic "even fish get good hands occasionally, so we should fold" is faulty logic. If someone raises without looking at their cards, it's an easy 3-bet with AKo, even though their range includes AA/KK. By the poster's logic, we should fold AKo, because "even someone who raises in the dark gets aces and kings."

As for the situation you pointed out, it's a bit different than the situation that the OP has posted. The difference is that I don't have the bankroll to be making million dollar bets. I'm assuming the OP has the bankroll to play the stakes he's playing at. In limit hold'em (for the most part), there aren't situations where the variance is so high that it'll substantially increase our risk of ruin, assuming that we're properly bankrolled.

[slavic]

My spread was exagerated just to illustrate the point. The players you describe are going to offer fairly constant odds to you, but your entry price will vary. So is it better to take the same odds with a 6SB entry fee or a 2SB entry fee given that you'll be able to build the greatest equity post flop?

[Dazarath]

The EV varies with the amount of bets going in, though. I do agree that being able to come in for 1-2 SB is much better than 4-5 SB, but if 4-5 SB is the only option, and it's +EV, then the OP should be playing. Note, I never gave an opinion on the correct play for the situation. I was just pointing out the faulty logic used by one poster who also took it upon himself to insult the others in the thread regarding their intelligence.

[slavic]

I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply you are wrong in your thinking. I'm making a bit of an assumption that this hand is not atypical for the OP's table, and usually that is a safe assumption.

The guy insulting everyones intelligence I had already marked as a troll and I don't see his posts.

[Joe Tall]

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I can't believe so many of you love this king jack suited (#&$^) it's such garbage of a hand.

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It's not a garbage hand but in this situation it's a fold given the texture of the game.

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jack ten off suit, something like that where i'm drawing to specific hand situations

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Now, JTo is a garbage hand in nearly every game.