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#11
11-15-2005, 04:51 AM
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Re: Worse hands will fold, better hands will call....
I think you are pointing out that you often find yourself with a strong starting hand, but after your opponents act it is unclear where you stand and now the pot is substantial and you still have plenty of money behind. Very unpleasant.
Isn't this inevitable? That is, some situations will evolve to an EV~0, with large variance. Do you think this should be avoidable or am I misunderstanding? 
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#12
11-15-2005, 09:09 AM
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Re: Worse hands will fold, better hands will call....
Just push them both, IMO. Too short to get away when they could very easily have draws. Even if you check, you could be inducing bluffs and then you'll be getting too good odds to fold. Just bet to charge their draws. You have outs in both hands even if you're behind, FWIW.
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#13
11-15-2005, 09:16 AM
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Re: Worse hands will fold, better hands will call....
[ QUOTE ]
I raise with AK to $14, the player behind me reraises to $40 or something. I call. Flop is Kxx rainbow. I check/call the flop, check/call the turn, check/fold to a push on the river. Yuck. [/ QUOTE ] Of course even if this is the max EV line, as soon as you make it predictable a good opponent will shred you. If villain is genuinely tight and solid, how often do you consider mucking the AK preflop? If the player's range is somewhat wider, how often do you checkraise this flop all-in?
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#14
11-15-2005, 02:51 PM
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Re: Worse hands will fold, better hands will call....
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are pointing out that you often find yourself with a strong starting hand, but after your opponents act it is unclear where you stand and now the pot is substantial and you still have plenty of money behind. Very unpleasant. Isn't this inevitable? That is, some situations will evolve to an EV~0, with large variance. Do you think this should be avoidable or am I misunderstanding? [/ QUOTE ] My concern is that ideally when betting I would like for better hands to call me, or for worse hands to fold. I would like to avoid bets which achieve neither of these goals. However, I must also balance this with the need to protect my hand with cards to come. Getting my money in with the worst hand is -EV, and giving free cards is -EV, so I'm trying to figure out if there's something I am doing wrong.
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#15
11-15-2005, 02:55 PM
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Re: Worse hands will fold, better hands will call....
You wrote this post backwards (first sentence). But I think you are just putting too much emphasis on the wrong things. For instance, there are several situations where pot control will outweigh any of the things you're talking about here. This may be especially true out of position on early streets with deep stacks. And sometimes just taking your due is fine. For instance, let's say I raise preflop with JJ and have one caller behind me. Flop comes Axx. I'm plenty happy to make a bet which will only get called when I'm beat and then to check/fold if called. That way, I get my due if he didn't outflop me and I don't lose too much when he did. That's just the way it works out of position. When you're in position, you'll put HIM in that bad situation.
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#16
11-15-2005, 03:05 PM
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Re: Worse hands will fold, better hands will call....
Pot control doesn't apply in any of these scenarios because there is only one bet left in the shallowest stack(s). With lots of money left I have no problem checking to control pot size, or making bets with marginal hands to find out if I'm beat.
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#17
11-15-2005, 03:39 PM
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Re: Worse hands will fold, better hands will call....
I was just giving general examples. In your cases, I just throw it in both times. People will still make mistakes and call with worse hands. And if they won't, then fine, you're just too shallow to get away if you're also going to not get blown off your hand every time. You simply put it in and win the pot when you are ahead and lose your stack when you are behind and don't suck out. That's just how it works when you are not deep.
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#18
11-15-2005, 03:46 PM
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Re: Worse hands will fold, better hands will call....
[ QUOTE ]
Worse hands will fold, better hands will call.... [/ QUOTE ] Sometimes this is ok. Do you see why?
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#19
11-15-2005, 03:56 PM
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Re: Worse hands will fold, better hands will call....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Worse hands will fold, better hands will call.... [/ QUOTE ] Sometimes this is ok. Do you see why? [/ QUOTE ] You find out where you're at when called. If folded you know your opponent wouldn't pay off anyway and you avoid giving him a chance to catch up... "even when your opponent isn't getting good enough pot odds to call and figures to fold, you should bet. You would prefer a call when that opponent is making a mistake by calling, but making him fold is stilll better than giving him a free shot to outdraw you"-TOP
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