commerce 20-40NL

[riverboatking]

duh! sorry...its Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[ahnuld]

Call, pot blank turn (no diamond, no A or 6) and fold to a turn raise? If a diamond hits, I think I just give up. If I pot turn and he calls, I think I check, evaluate his river bet.

[lapoker17]

He's good, this is scary.

I think a big draw makes a bigger raise, but for some kind of moderate draw this seems a big enough raise to buy him a free turn. So this is either strictly for value w 22 or you have to make him pay to draw - either right now or by leading a blank turn big.

I think it very unlikely he's testing you with a pair like TT - as I think he would raise PF to isolate bad limper and his 8K.

I think I call and lead a blank turn.

[mikech]

is he tricky enough to have AA/KK here? limp in early looking to re-pop it, but when you put in such a big pfr from the bb he now decides to trap. just a thought...

the size of his raise is tough to figure too, only 1700 more on top of 4200 already in the pot: it looks equally possible to be a raise wanting action, or to be a raise by a draw. extremely tough spot...i'd prob'ly fold here cuz there are a ton of turn cards that you would hate to see, and if you're already beat it could cost you another 11k to find out. (i think pushing might be better than calling, but i don't like pushing either, so i fold.)

another thing this hand illustrates is how being oop really sucks, cuz if you just call, he's dictating this hand now; he gets to decide how big to make the pot on the turn, whether to take a free card, etc.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
Call, pot blank turn (no diamond, no A or 6) and fold to a turn raise? If a diamond hits, I think I just give up. If I pot turn and he calls, I think I check, evaluate his river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

it seems many are forgetting the UTG bad player who is still in the hand and called my 1K rather quickly.

[lapoker17]

But you portray UTG as bad enough to call with a huge range here - Is he calling your flop bet w 88/99? I guess your line depends on just how bad he is.

And FWIW, I don't mind a fold here - I'd rather not play a big pot OOP with one pair against one of the best players in that game - but your current roll is bigger than mine.

[AZK]

Any chance he is trying to blow you out and get it heads up with UTG since you both probably know UTG will call any draw for any amount of money? It's such a tiny raise, that's what's so weird about it.

[ahnuld]

Ya i did forget the coldcaller. I think its even more likely that Hung (hehe im still a 5 year old at heart) is f.o.s and knows he can outplay or just outbet the bad player when the bad player misses his draw by the river. I think this makes his hand range quite a bit bigger, like 44-TT). Maybe this means repoping it to 8k straight is the better answer. I guess this commits us to a push unless you can manage to get away from a allin for 6k more. Would he do that with a draw? If he would, call obv.

However, you could still call and see where you're at on the turn. Same cards are scray as the BP is drawing to one of them. SO without committing 8k on the flop, and without folding, Ill go with a flat call and lead on the turn for 6k if a blank hits. I think if he pushes there I could find a fold for my last 6k.

[coltrane]

rbk,

couple of thoughts....

this is the kind of flop I like to check out of position if I'm heads-up and sometimes even if it's 3-way.....4-way you're not thrilled to give a free card, so a bet works okay....as for the bet amount, I might've bet either less or more.....betting $600 accomplishes basically the same thing as $1000 does, OR, I even like a bet of like $1500-2000 to see really what's up - now you're really charging the fish if he wants to chase you with position, and you'll find out a hell of a lot about the tough player's holding.....

anyway, given how it did actually play out, a couple questions come to mind.....like la said, what does the amount of villain's raise mean - what is your read?....is this a rockcrusher or a feeler?.....remember also that he raised a bet and a call (how might that affect what he might do?).....also, what does UTG look like? - is he reaching for chips or was he pissed that he has to put more money in the pot?.....

I'd say that probably the textbook thing to do here is fine - folding probably doesn't lose much in the long haul or call the raise and lead out BIG on the turn.....but if you have a good read otherwise, either save your chips or even give'em the bomb now.....

[Ulysses]

WTF does that 1/3 pot raise mean? Is he trying to freeze you or milk you?

I'm inclined to make it 6 to go. Or call and lead the turn for 5k. Ugh. Maybe not. I dunno. Hands like this against tough players suck. Good post.