How the rules are made in a poker room.

[Randy_Refeld]

A fundamental problem that faces many new card rooms is howo to make rules and procedures. In 1999 (maybe early 2000) I was faced with updating the rulebook for a casino on the strip. I didn't really know how to write this stuff so I emailed Tommy Angelo becasue I knew he had recently written the rules at Lucky CHances adn I was very interested in the NL rules, as we were spreading a NL game and wanted ot be in line with what they were doing other places. He explained a very important concept to me.

You must watch a poker game and wirte down how they play. He told me if I had any questions about the NL game he could answer them but they hadn't been spreading it long enough to get all the rules down in black and white.

What is happening many places today is poker is being spread by people who lack expereince and are attempting to write rules and then telling the players to do this rather tahn observing the game and writing rules that reflect what the players actually do.

[bdk3clash]

If it's Vegas, any rule must contribute toward increasing overall nittishness.

If it's the East Coast, anything that can increase the number of chip denominations in use at a single table is considered a good rule.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
If it's Vegas, any rule must contribute toward increasing overall nittishness.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Now I understand why the LV poker experience is what it is.

[ QUOTE ]
If it's the East Coast, anything that can increase the number of chip denominations in use at a single table is considered a good rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that's done in LV too.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
A fundamental problem that faces many new card rooms is howo to make rules and procedures. In 1999 (maybe early 2000) I was faced with updating the rulebook for a casino on the strip. I didn't really know how to write this stuff so I emailed Tommy Angelo becasue I knew he had recently written the rules at Lucky CHances adn I was very interested in the NL rules, as we were spreading a NL game and wanted ot be in line with what they were doing other places. He explained a very important concept to me.

You must watch a poker game and wirte down how they play. He told me if I had any questions about the NL game he could answer them but they hadn't been spreading it long enough to get all the rules down in black and white.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point by by Tommy. I have an early version of those Lucky Chances rules. They didn't cover NL/PL but had lots of other good ideas (such as a superior manner or describing the "half bet is a raise rule").

Questions: Were you able to use other rule books (warts and all) as a starting point?

Were royalties/propriety information a problem? For example, it seems Ciaffone is very forthcoming with the work he's done but I'm not 100% sure of others such as the 1997 Los Angeles rulebooks or the work done by Caro, Cooke, Mike O'Malley, etc.


[ QUOTE ]
What is happening many places today is poker is being spread by people who lack expereince and are attempting to write rules and then telling the players to do this rather tahn observing the game and writing rules that reflect what the players actually do.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a rare poker manager/rulemaker who has experience as a winning, non-nitty player. They also have a tendency to cater to the daytime nit/complainers, since the top managers (those most likely to make rules) tend to work the hours these daytime nits play. Horrendous "must-move" policies are an example of this tendency.

In no limit certain rules need to be written better, especially for the smaller names. What constitutes a bet or raise is one. Curbing some of the excessive behavior *might* be another. Some would argue that the current near free for all (e.g., people not involved in the hand openly guessing hands when players are still active) is part of what makes the game good. Others might argue that most of the fun spirit should be kept, but the excesses need to be curbed or controlled (I'm in this camp). Others would want to take it back to the old days.

It's taken me a long time playing NL to get some type of understanding what the real problems are and what is good about the current situation. I do know who should be consulted if one were to take a stab at writing a better set of NL rules. You, Al Capone, Photoc, Tommy, Diablo and others from 2+2 would be high on my list. Unfortunately, my experience is that most poker managers don't give a damn about any of these player's opinions (that said, kudos to Lucky Chances for establishing a player's committee and putting people like Tommy Angelo on it).

~ Rick

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]
(that said, kudos to Lucky Chances for establishing a player's committee and putting people like Tommy Angelo on it).

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

God help us if Poker managers do this!!

Lucky Chances had a very rare experience in regards to this in my opinion. However they also had some top notch personnel to go with.

A perfect example of them "nit" daytime players involved in a "players committee" was made about 18 months ago at the Grand Casino in Tunica. Here's a rule the "nits" came up with. Casino employees playing in any cash game MAY NOT checkraise!!

wtf? But they certainly can!...roflmao. Poker anyone?

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
A perfect example of them "nit" daytime players involved in a "players committee" was made about 18 months ago at the Grand Casino in Tunica. Here's a rule the "nits" came up with. Casino employees playing in any cash game MAY NOT checkraise!!

[/ QUOTE ]

In fairness that was already a rule there. That player's council got a free meal once a month, some jackets, and they got to meat with the poker management once a month.

I was opposed to this because what is in the (nitty) player's best interest is not what is in the room's best interest.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Questions: Were you able to use other rule books (warts and all) as a starting point?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I used the existed rules as a starting point (which were lifted from another room in Vegas). I also consulted the rulebooks that were around at the time.



[ QUOTE ]
Were royalties/propriety information a problem? For example, it seems Ciaffone is very forthcoming with the work he's done but I'm not 100% sure of others such as the 1997 Los Angeles rulebooks or the work done by Caro, Cooke, Mike O'Malley, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

We didn't continue this. This was an internal use only document. It was not available to players (I suppose if they wanted to bad enough that Nevada Gaming might have given them one).

[ QUOTE ]
It's a rare poker manager/rulemaker who has experience as a winning, non-nitty player. They also have a tendency to cater to the daytime nit/complainers, since the top managers (those most likely to make rules) tend to work the hours these daytime nits play. Horrendous "must-move" policies are an example of this tendency.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the things that kept us in touch with who was playing in our room is I managed swing shift and the poker room manager worked my days off for me. At the time we had the only low buy-in NL game in town so a lot of players that had experience playing hihger at side games during touranmetns would play in our room.

[ QUOTE ]
(that said, kudos to Lucky Chances for establishing a player's committee and putting people like Tommy Angelo on it).


[/ QUOTE ]

As was mentioned elsewhere I think they got lucky (or took time to find the right people). Usually attempts liek this fail miserably because those same day time nits that influence the top managers ususally end up involved with this type of thing. The day time nits are generally in favor of any rule that will chase off new guests.