A JJ hand

[FrogMouth]

Well that changes everything. Dyslexia kicked in!

What Fnurt said!

[fnurt]

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You have just over 10bb, push PF to aviod this situation.

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I have 2300 and the bb is t100.

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This is true, however, for the record: JJ is a good enough hand where if you actually did have 10 BB, I think it's worth taking a little risk for the chance of doubling up. Yeah, if you make a normal raise, you may feel stupid when his Q9 outflops you. But when you're on the borderline of desperation, I think it's worth taking that chance in order to entice a call, because if you only pick up the blinds you'll be right back in the same position next orbit, only without a hand as good as JJ.

[Jason Strasser]

Here's the thing.

You are really not getting away from this ever. Maybe you can bet 300 and fold to a raise from some opponents, but for the purpose of analyis I really think versus a majority of opponents you just cant fold here.

So if you get past that hurdle, you can do a little thinking.

If he has an ace oh well you are getting it in with 2 outs probably any way you play it.

Here's the other thing tho, and where I disagree with Fnurt:

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Check behind, and hope he gives you some action on the turn.

If you are ahead on the flop, he most likely has no more than 2 or 3 outs on the turn. That's a risk I am willing to take, so I check behind and call a turn bet if he pushes.

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Well, so often in this spot betting is better than checking behind because I think the opposite of what Fnurt said. First of all if your opponent has a worse pair than you, I think you have more of a chance of getting money in on the flop than you would getting money in later. A scary other high card could come or kill your action, and also they may actually be more scared of your flop check than they would of a bet.

Also if you check behind there are hands like KQ and maybe a worse pair that will not call any additional bets unless they improve. In spots like this where its very hard to draw equity out of many hands and impossible to get best hands to fold, the one thing you can do is win the pot now versus hands that will only pay you off if they improve their hand and make a better hand than the one you have.

-Jason

[Elaboration]

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he most likely has no more than 2 or 3 outs on the turn.

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So, the potential holding of KQ is not enough to disqualify a wawb line?

Thanks-

[fnurt]

What you say is true, but it's only one specific hand that has 6 outs. Considering he could hold a bunch of different hands in this spot, I don't think it affects the overall analysis much.

Strassa made a good case but I still think when the villain is short stacked and you check the flop, in general, he's going to smell blood and will be very likely to give you action. He could be right, though.

[Jason Strasser]

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You have just over 10bb, push PF to aviod this situation.

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Stare at this so hard until your eyes bleed or until you figure out why this is terrible thinking.

-Jason

[Elaboration]

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KQ and maybe a worse pair that will not call any additional bets unless they improve.

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You do not think these hands push the turn in hopes I am scared of the A and will fold a better hand?

Thanks-

[Dave D]

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Yeah, I would sacrifice winning those extra chips the times you are ahead, for the (albeit small) possibility he folds an ace,

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So basically you are advocating winning the min/losing the max v.s. winning the max/losing the same(max)?

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Not really. I think we both agree that at some point we're pushing on this hand (or calling a push).

I think it's best to bet up front and hope he folds, while you seem to like to check/call down. I don't like checking the flop b/c it gives free cards, so a hand that would have folded to a bet on the flop, gets a chance to improve on the turn.

If he has an ace, he has an ace, and I think both of us agree that we're doubling him up in that case. But I think betting up front is better for the other times that he doesn't have an ace.

Come to think of it, I like pushing the flop more and more. If you're gonna bet 400, you might as well push. My only concern (and the reason I didn't think it was as great of a move before) is that it looks like a steal/bluff. But if we get called by weaker hands, that's ultimatly a good thing. The only downside is we give up our chances of a weaker ace folding, which I still believe is a possibility in a party 30+3, from my experiance.

[Jason Strasser]

Perhaps.

But that shouldnt be the basis for your decision IMO. The benefits of betting outway the benefits of checking as I outlined above.

-Jason

[FrogMouth]

Well, my eyes haven't started bleeding yet.

I admit that I misread the OP, and appologize for my hasty advice. I will concede that in many instances pushing is not the best option. But, had the stacks been reversed as I had mis-read I'm sure I could make a solid argument for pushing PF in many situations. Without any occular damage.

Reason #1
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I am relatively new to the table, but my read basically entails...
"-called big all-in reraise with KQo
-loose caller pre-flop
-donk"

Overly passive is not part of the read.



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