Commerce 20-40NL

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very easy fold, isn't it?


[/ QUOTE ]

That was my immediate reaction, but then I realized that hero could actually be ahead here.

Look at it this way. The pot is 51 BB on the flop! A paired board is checked around by 6 people. Then a MP player throws out a 17.5 BB bet when a DEUCE hits.

I agree with you that this is a fold. I am just saying that it is possible that EP was not overly impressed with the "strength" shown by the bettor and raiser.

In other words, if hero bets 3/4 pot, raiser bumps it up 3/4 pot higher, and then EP comes over the top after initially checking, you can fold the underfull 100 times out of 100. This is not what happened.

I agree it is a fold, just not the clear slam dunk it would normally be.

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
i have ~12K.
EP is a very good aggressive player, ~18K
LP is a relatively unknown, no real read, ~10K.

i limp with 2-2 in MP, LP raises to $340, five callers to me i call.

flop A-5-5 rainbow.

checked around.

turn 2 (A-5-5).

checked to me i bet $700, LP (pfr) makes it $1900,
folded around to EP who sits up straight in his chair, asks us both for chip counts, then makes it $4000.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sucks, but I think you gotta lay this down. You're stuck in between the pfr, who checked a paired, ace-high board in position, and then raised the turn (would he raise the turn w/ KK in a five-way pot? Would he check that flop w/ AK?), and a good, aggro player who by your account seems delighted by all the action he's seeing.

Unless the game is really *that* good, I just can't see at least A5 not being out there, if not AA or quad fives . . .

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
i have ~12K.
EP is a very good aggressive player, ~18K
LP is a relatively unknown, no real read, ~10K.

i limp with 2-2 in MP, LP raises to $340, five callers to me i call.

flop A-5-5 rainbow.

checked around.

turn 2 (A-5-5).

checked to me i bet $700, LP (pfr) makes it $1900,
folded around to EP who sits up straight in his chair, asks us both for chip counts, then makes it $4000.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is real tough. I've got no answers. Interested to see other comments though.

[spoohunter]

I don't think it's possible for EP to have AA here. A good, aggressive player, limp calling AA? With 4 limpers behind him? If PFR does have AA how is EP making it 4k? With 55?

PFR has done nothing to worry us really. He is much more likely to have AK and fold on the turn. There's no way he's calling EP's raise with AK is there? If there is you might call and bring him along, softening the times when EP has you beat. The only hand I can see EP having you beat with is 55 or A5s. Wouldn't he do this with 56,45s, or would he not limp them up front? Maybe he thought someone would bet the ace on the flop?

[mythrilfox]

Post-oak, I was actually going to comment that I loved hero's turn bet size. In the rare situation where you bet 3/4, are raised 3/4, and then are re-raised again, yes, betting larger is better because then the ep guy would be all-in and you could easily fold. But this is extremely rare, most of the time you're going to want to keep the pot small because you could be crushed and stacks are deep, but still goad an ace or a 5 into calling you. The pot is already ballooning out of control as it is, hero can't stand much more if he pots it.

I fold here as well. You might be able to call if you pick up any physical reads. Calling is ok because EP provides some nice protection against the LP raiser. (All-in is the worst I think) But given your description this does not look like a steal but 2 guys ready to go to war. It's possible LP has AK and decided to play a little unconventionally, but I can't see this being a steal from EP, unless he's very lag/tricky which you didn't mention ... he'd probably lead the turn with anything you beat (trip 5s etc.) On the other hand, if he really did have a monster, would he have put himself in a situation where he so clearly defines his hand?

btw how many people was LP raising to start the hand off with?

[mgsimpleton]

I don't know that I would fold here. I'd like to think I would and I think it would be prudent and a good idea to fold, but there is also a strong chance that hero is ahead here.

I mean, out of the range of hands, if LP has AK (very possible to check that flop w/AK) and EP has something like 56s (also very possible to slow play on the rainbow flop) hero could EASILY be ahead. However, those are the only hands out of the range that would make hero the winner for now, that LP was slowplaying AK and EP slowplaying trips. Given that there are so many other possibilities of hands, and the possibility of being outdrawn even if ahead, I think this is a fold... but it would not surprise me one big if hero laid down the winner.

[riverboatking]

i folded pretty quickly and without much hesitation.
this would be a pretty bad spot for the EP to bluff at.
i immediately ruled out AA for EP as there is no way he smooth calls the preflop raise, and i while A-5 is a possiblity, i thought it was much more likely he had flopped quads.

the LP really was representing AA by checking the flop then raising the turn, and so i think EP thought he had a good chance of stacking him off.

it turned out that the LP folded, and Kenny (for those of you familiar with the game) did in fact have quads.

he told me after the hand he really put me on 2-2 and thought i'd push the turn.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
he told me after the hand he really put me on 2-2 and thought i'd push the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you have done had he just called? I think he played his hand really horribly.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
i folded pretty quickly and without much hesitation.

[/ QUOTE ]

duh!
i meant folded pretty quickly and without much contemplation.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you have done had he just called? I think he played his hand really horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

you know honestly, even if he would of just called i would have tried to get to showdown without putting in another dime.

i mean what possible hands can he be colding calling with?
i know this guy and if he had a naked five he would have led the flop trying to break AK.
and after a bet and raise i don't think he's coming with 3-4, so he must have a boat, and mine is the worst boat possible.