25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.

[riverboatking]

so the game at the bike broke, and the board for the 10-20 was way to long, so i decided to give the 25-50 game a shot.
besides two players whom i recognized as extremely good players the table looked pretty soft.

i sat down w/ 5K was down to 2K and had finally worked my stack back up to 7K when this hand went down.

i have a very tight table image (mostly because for the past hour i was getting no playable hands).

i'm in the BB w/66 ~7K.
MP is a very solid but ABC player who is very capable of laying down big hands. he has me way covered.
the button is martin dekniff (not sure if i'm spelling it right) and he just sat down so i have no read on him and vice versa. he also has me way covered.

ok so four limpers to me i check.
flop comes 6h 9c 5h.
i check MP bets $300, folded to button who calls, i make it $1100 to go.

(the past two nice pots i won came after i limped utg w/KK then QQ and reraised. w/KK i got two callers and made a big flop bet and won, with the QQ i limpreraised a very aggro players raise and several callers and they all folded. only mention this as the table has seen me go for the checkraise several times already)

MP and button call.
turn comes 2s making the board 2s 5h 6h 9c.

i check (comments?) MP bets 2K button calls.
at this point whats your line?

for those of you who advocate leading out on the turn whats your plan if raised?
for those of you who advocate calling the turn whats you plan both if the board doesn't pair on the river, and if it does.

i'll post my actual line and the results after some discussion.
thanks.

[greg nice]

since youve been check raising a lot, when you c/r the flop and then check the turn it looks like you were just trying to steal it on the flop, no?

also, why not lead out on the flop?

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
also, why not lead out on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

in this instance if i lead the flop there is a good chance i'm going to get flatcalled by a drawing hand, and only raised (which would be my goal if leading out) by a better hand.

i figured by CR i could get some dead money in the pot and also raise enough to chase out the many draws that were out there.

but by all means deconstruct that line. just sharing my thought process at the time.

[Utah]

I like betting the flop, hope to get raised by an overpair, two pair, or a draw and then come back over the top to shut them out or get them to make a bad call.

It seem seems that you made the hand very tricky on yourself as you have zero idea what the MP has. He could have bet $2000 because he smelled weakness, because he wanted to protect an overpair, because he was on a draw, etc.

Now, you are put to an extremely tough turn decision. If you call, you could be giving him a free shot and you are likely in an ugly position on the river if the poard doesnt pair and he puts you to the test.

If you come back over the top you could lose your entire stack.

I saw your reasoning on why you checkraised the flop. However, you dont know that you are going to get called instead of raised and if you are called that isnt a bad thing anyway.

just my two cents

[Ghazban]

I don't play this high so keep in mind I may have no idea what I'm talking about....

There are a couple things I don't like here. First is the size of your checkraise. Button's call of the 300 looks like he might be drawing so, if MP calls your checkraise, his odds to call the 800 more for a draw aren't horrible assuming he can get some more money out of either your or MP when he hits. If you had checkraised larger than the pot size (say, 1700?), I think you can get headup against just one of the other two who would be holding either a big draw or a made hand (overpair, two pair, bigger set-ugh).

Then after you checkraised the flop, why did you check the turn? I really feel like somebody is drawing here and, unless they had 43, they didn't get there yet. I don't want to give a free card to a heart or another straightening card that could put me to a very tough decision on the river.

Personally, I think I'd lead the turn (~2/3 pot) and fold to a raise. If flat called, I'd check/call a reasonable bet on a non-scary river and throw out a blocking bet on the river to a scary card and fold to a reraise. If a heart came that paired the board on the river, I'd make the same blocking bet and hope somebody came over the top so I could go allin and lose to quads.

I'm primarily a small stakes player so feel free to point out any serious flaws in my thinking here.

[riverboatking]

one thing to remember, this was an unraised pot.

[Utah]

I am curious how you think that affects this?

I think that it is an unraised pot is one of the reasons to lead out as it doesnt say anything about your hand. You could be stealing, betting top pair, a weak pair, a draw, 2 pair etc.

You are likely to face a nice raise to your flop bet.

Also, what about a line where you lead overbet the pot on the flop and trick them into thinking something like, "he has a 9 or a piece of the flop and he doesnt want anyone sticking around with their draws and because he is unsure of his hand. I think I will fire a big bet to let him know his hand is no good".

[turnipmonster]

this is a tough hand. one thing I'd like to know is how much MP and button have, in other words can button be calling with a draw on the turn still? (usually he would not have enough left to do this)

at any rate, MP calling 2k on the turn has alarm bells going off in my head. I like the turn check as it looks like you were stabbing at the flop, however with 4k left in a 7.5k pot I am either checkraising allin or folding the turn. I may not get paid if the board pairs, and there are plenty of scare cards. if this were heads up, you are less worried about scare cards but in a 3 way pot usually there is at least one monster draw out there.

I was thinking yesterday that I really hate 3 way pots, you always have tough decisions to make.

--turnipmonster

[sawseech]

mp most likely has an overpair TT-QQ looking to showdown; if not he's on a KFD or NFD.

button 55 set being cute or baby flushdraw combo (4h3h? possible gutshot as well)

allin

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]

It seem seems that you made the hand very tricky on yourself as you have zero idea what the MP has. He could have bet $2000 because he smelled weakness, because he wanted to protect an overpair, because he was on a draw, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this hand has gotten very tricky. I don't agree with the range of reasons that you give for MP betting 2K here.

The pot is already 3.5K+ plus, so why does he bet only 2K? Surely he knows that button could be on a big draw and they are both VERY deep stacked (I wish the OP had given us the specific amounts - 15K?).

1. he smelled weakness?
Not possible IMO. He started this hand by overbetting the pot. He got called. Then there was a checkraise. He called AND the button called. He is not sensing weakness from anyone here.

2. because he wanted to protect an overpair
See #1. He is done with the hand if he was dumb enough to call the checkraise with just an overpair and the button bet caller still to act behind him. When the button also calls the checkraise, he has to know an overpair is no good. When he bets here he will have two people to act behind him, and one has already shown a proclivity to checkraise.

3. because he was on a draw
It seems he could be putting this out there as a little bit of a "blocking bet" type move where he wants to correctly price himself in for his big draw. But wouldn't he be worried that button is still to act and Hero has already checkraised?

4. I think he is pricing you in to push
I think he wants a push here from you. Button calls, you push, he can now push and ruin button's big draw. This means he has 78 of course.

You don't give the size of the villains' stacks, but I assume they are in the 15K+ range. This means they are more concerned with each other's stacks as far as being on a big draw is concerned (or set against straight). When he (under)bets 2K he has to know that you are pretty much being given the option to push or fold. I would hate to just call here. There are a lot of scare cards which could fall. You would only have ~4K left and the pot would be huge (~9.5K). I can't see calling and then folding if a heart, 7 or 8 falls.

5. he is putting out a feeler bet with bottom set?
I guess it is possible that he is confused as to just what the hell these people have and he wants a better idea. 2K is a lot cheaper than betting close to the pot.

There are 3 people in this hand and all are showing strength. Everyone in the hand must assume that they are up against a straight, set or big draw (or possible from villains' perspectives that hero has 2 pair and checked the turn because the checkraise getting called by 2 people means he is done with the hand).

I think you have to push or fold. I don't like calling. I would fold. I just think that the most likely explanation of MP underbetting the pot is to goad you into pushing.

I would lean towards folding. Pushing is OK too because of the pot size. It is not true that pushing is bad because of "deep stacks". Your stack is no longer deep in relation to the pot. You would be coming over the top for 4K more into a 9.5K pot.

Again, the question is why MP would bet 2K into a 3.5K pot with a draw heavy board and two opponents who have shown strength. If he has a set I think he would bet more. And then when button calls, it is probable that your set is no good here. Even if it is good at the moment, button or MP could actually be on a big draw and have 9-12 outs.

So I lean towards folding, but pushing seems OK because of the massive pot. Calling I like least.