Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Limit Texas Hold'em > Mid-High Stakes Shorthanded

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 12-17-2005, 10:29 PM
Surfbullet Surfbullet is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 7
Default Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.

the flop c/r looks sooo fishy. Fortunately, a 40/15 may not be in tune enough to pick up on that. If the famous 2er c/rs and you know his range could be as wide as weak PPs / A-hi then go ahead and raise lots of turns. I crash flops though, so i'd probably 3bet/lead if I felt that said 2er was familiar iwth my playstyle.

Surf
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-17-2005, 11:02 PM
disjunction disjunction is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 79
Default Re: Okay, so I guess I should have bet. Bastards.

[ QUOTE ]
It's just that betting there is so obvious, and people seem to play back at me at 20/40 all the time when I do something obvious

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you need to clear your head. They play back at you because you haven't narrowed your range! (I'm sure you know this). Putting 2 big bets in with 25% equity in a ~8 big bet pot isn't the end of the world.

You could try folding your ATo faceup preflop next time. That oughta take'em by surprise. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-18-2005, 01:54 AM
Grisgra Grisgra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 715
Default Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.

[ QUOTE ]
the flop c/r looks sooo fishy. Fortunately, a 40/15 may not be in tune enough to pick up on that. If the famous 2er c/rs and you know his range could be as wide as weak PPs / A-hi then go ahead and raise lots of turns. I crash flops though, so i'd probably 3bet/lead if I felt that said 2er was familiar iwth my playstyle.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I wasn't sure it looked "fishy", but it definitely didn't look common, and that's partly what I was looking for. You're right, though, it was a bit odd. Problem was that given the surprise that SB and BB folded, I didn't like the alternatives. There's nothing technically wrong with going for a turn checkraise, I s'pose, except that if he checks behind then he gets another peek for 6 outs on the river. And I have to put in more money that way, and I think that in that game people believe turn checkraises less than they do flop ones.

I dunno, I'm graspin' at straws here.

I'll post more results after getting more comments (expecting a few more, I hope).
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-19-2005, 12:11 PM
Grisgra Grisgra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 715
Default Results

[ QUOTE ]
i dont really like the checkraise... looks like youre FOS and he mioght make a big play at u by calling and raising turn w/ nothing.... just call and see the turn... prob checkcall him down.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I checkcall him down then I have zero chance to get him to fold a small pocket or piece, or AJ. One thing about the 20/40'ers that they don't have in common with the 10/20'ers is that they are relentless value-bettors and the little buggers just KNOW when you're calling down with A-high.

Really, really tired of that.

Anyway, I checkraised the flop, he called. A blank (a 7?) fell on the turn. I bet, he thought for about 21 minutes and then called. The river paired the board (a 4 I think) and I shot my last barrel. He thought for about 82 minutes and finally folded.

So it worked. Whether it was a fluke, or good play, is the reason I posted here. I'm not surprised that almost everyone is telling me to follow the standard bet the flop line, or the call-down line, but in my experiencing doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations ta 20/40 is costing me money. So I guess I'm still lost. (Though admittedly, this flop is SO dry that betting out is probably best.)

Another advantage to what I did -- when I checked on this super-dry flop, any thinking player with a tiny pocket or piece had to be worried that that looked very suspicious, and might have folded. That is, in this line it's slightly more possible that the SB/BB would fold an ISD or tiny pocket than if I had bet straight out. No?

I know that my eyebrows would have shot up if the preflop raiser didn't bet when it was checked to him on a board of Q42r.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-19-2005, 06:10 PM
cartman cartman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 366
Default Re: Results

[ QUOTE ]
doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations ta 20/40 is costing me money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a prolific flop checker after raising preflop when I have 3 opponents or more and maybe that is a leak of mine, but with two opponents I virtually always bet. If I understand correctly the reason you are "supposed to" bet is that you are getting at least 6 to 1 odds and if you check they may very well take the pot away from you with a worse hand or with a turned better hand that you gave unlimited odds to on the flop. If they both fold immediately on the flop more than 1 time in 7 then your bet is profitable even if you have blank cards. Combine that with the chances that you get it heads up and make it to the showdown for 1 more big bet, and the flop bet that you feel like you are pissing away is nearly mandatory in my opinion.

I often check with 3 opponents or more because the chances that either they all fold immediately to the flop bet or that one of them just calls with a worse hand seems to drop more than the extra money in the pot can compensate for. Should I usually be betting the flop with Ace high even against 3 opponents after raising preflop?

Thanks,
Cartman
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-19-2005, 06:19 PM
flawless_victory flawless_victory is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 144
Default Re: Results

i am nearly positive u had the best hand.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-19-2005, 06:25 PM
kahntrutahn kahntrutahn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 78
Default Re: Results

[ QUOTE ]
Should I usually be betting the flop with Ace high even against 3 opponents after raising preflop?


[/ QUOTE ]


At 20/40, I don't think so. I often follow the same line that you do Cartman. The OP summed up my feelings at 20/40 with this line:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not surprised that almost everyone is telling me to follow the standard bet the flop line, or the call-down line, but in my experiencing doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations at 20/40 is costing me money.

[/ QUOTE ]


My one concern here, and this is something I feel I personally need to work on, is checking a slightly higher percentage of made hands on the flop to account for this, as I fire at this pot at lower limits. However, if one adds this check into their reportoire without some sort of compensation, then a flop check means with utmost certainty "hey guys I missed" every time, and these 20/40 bastards will exploit the crap out of this...
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-20-2005, 01:08 PM
Grisgra Grisgra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 715
Default Re: Results

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Should I usually be betting the flop with Ace high even against 3 opponents after raising preflop?


[/ QUOTE ]


At 20/40, I don't think so. I often follow the same line that you do Cartman. The OP summed up my feelings at 20/40 with this line:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not surprised that almost everyone is telling me to follow the standard bet the flop line, or the call-down line, but in my experiencing doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations at 20/40 is costing me money.

[/ QUOTE ]


My one concern here, and this is something I feel I personally need to work on, is checking a slightly higher percentage of made hands on the flop to account for this, as I fire at this pot at lower limits. However, if one adds this check into their reportoire without some sort of compensation, then a flop check means with utmost certainty "hey guys I missed" every time, and these 20/40 bastards will exploit the crap out of this...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they exploit the crap out of everything, don't they?

I dunno about the flop checkraise but I really don't think the flop check was that bad. Yes, it was an insanely dry board -- so much so that if I had followed the standard line I wouldn't be surprised if I had to combat someone bluff-raising me. I think this line took the initiative back once I had reason to believe I was safe, and I'm surprised nobody is seeing that possible benefit.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-20-2005, 02:33 PM
rory rory is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 29
Default Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.

I check there sometimes too, not really on that sort of board though. I'd be more likely to check if it was more coordinated and if my check meant the turn card came out. On this board it is too likely I have the best hand to check.

I think it is bad to call with a small pocket pair in the small blind with a raise and one caller as well, for what it is worth.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-20-2005, 02:49 PM
Grisgra Grisgra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 715
Default Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is bad to call with a small pocket pair in the small blind with a raise and one caller as well, for what it is worth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming the BB calls, you're putting in 1.5 small bets at a chance (after rake) of pulling in 6.5 small bets. Assuming you need 8:1 odds to win (flopped sets don't always take it), you don't think you make up three big bets postflop if you hit? I admit it's close, and if the BB 3-bets your odds go out the window. But it looks like the odds are there.

And yeah, yeah, super-dry board, I probably should have bet. Problem with 20/40 is it seems my UI aces are gettin' played back at a ton.

PS Next month, rory!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.