open limp from middle postion

[roy_miami]

Time for a rant.

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By the way, this question isn't really appropriate for this forum

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This is something that has been bothering me for a while and it has become much more prevalent lately since the split and everybody and their mother is a mod now. The perception from posters and many mods that micro equals beginner or high stakes for is for experts only. This perception is wrong. The micro forum is for questions regarding play that has occurred in a micro limit game. Micro games play much different than high limit games. Top pair weak kicker may be a fold in a micro limit game where it may be a raise in a high limit game. It is for this reason that there have been different forums created for the different levels. A micro limit poster shouldn't be going into a high limit forum and giving advice on how to play a hand the same as a high limit player shouldn't be advising a microlimit player on how to play a hand.

So you say this question doesn't belong in this forum. Where does it belong then? If the OP plays midlimit games then this is definitely the proper forum for his question. If he plays high limit games then it should have been left in the high limit forum. This post may seem trivial to many midlimit players, it may even seem like a beginner question, well so what? MAYBE THE OP IS A BEGINNER PLAYING MID LIMITS. He is asking a strategic question about midlimit games, it doesn't matter how trivial the question is-if its about midlimit games then it belongs in the midlimit forum.

If I won the lottery and want to start out playing 500/1000 as a beginner poker player, that's my business. And if I have some strategy questions about the game they belong in high stakes, even if I'm asking something dumb like if I should raise AA on the button. If you think its a dumb question just dint respond.

This isn't directed just at you eric, many of the mods don't seem to grasp the concept of the separate forums and this needed to be said.

Very interesting to see a discussion regarding the difference between MP1 and MP2. I have tried to solve this problem by considering MP1 to be EP and I refer to it as the "fence" as in "sitting on the fence" meaning it can be EP or MP depending upon game texture and the action thus far. The way I actually do it is to look backward from the button. Button and cutoff are LP. Next two are MP. Then comes the fence and three EPs.

Wes' comment on folding all of those hands is interesting and probably relevant for a tougher game than what I usually play. I am still by far the tightest preflop player in my game, however.

I am currently open-limping A9s and the lower Broadway suiteds from the fence. I open-raise AQo and 99 here too.

A3s is a clear fold for me here. I might play the small suited aces in LP but only with many limpers in front. In LP I might steal-raise with it but conditions would have to be right.

Small pairs (below 99) I usually limp to flop a set with many limpers in front or steal-raise (or isolate one limper) when late.

[mj2]

[ QUOTE ]
Time for a rant.

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, this question isn't really appropriate for this forum

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something that has been bothering me for a while and it has become much more prevalent lately since the split and everybody and their mother is a mod now. The perception from posters and many mods that micro equals beginner or high stakes for is for experts only. This perception is wrong. The micro forum is for questions regarding play that has occurred in a micro limit game. Micro games play much different than high limit games. Top pair weak kicker may be a fold in a micro limit game where it may be a raise in a high limit game. It is for this reason that there have been different forums created for the different levels. A micro limit poster shouldn't be going into a high limit forum and giving advice on how to play a hand the same as a high limit player shouldn't be advising a microlimit player on how to play a hand.

So you say this question doesn't belong in this forum. Where does it belong then? If the OP plays midlimit games then this is definitely the proper forum for his question. If he plays high limit games then it should have been left in the high limit forum. This post may seem trivial to many midlimit players, it may even seem like a beginner question, well so what? MAYBE THE OP IS A BEGINNER PLAYING MID LIMITS. He is asking a strategic question about midlimit games, it doesn't matter how trivial the question is-if its about midlimit games then it belongs in the midlimit forum.

If I won the lottery and want to start out playing 500/1000 as a beginner poker player, that's my business. And if I have some strategy questions about the game they belong in high stakes, even if I'm asking something dumb like if I should raise AA on the button. If you think its a dumb question just dint respond.

This isn't directed just at you eric, many of the mods don't seem to grasp the concept of the separate forums and this needed to be said.

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i agree with you. i play mostly 30/60 on party full-time and according to what i read, that is where i should post my questions. as far as this being too simple a question, i haven't seen a consensus on how to play these hands. i rarely see people talk about specific hands from a specific position. i think there is a huge difference between mp1 and mp3 and therefore there would be different strategies for the two positions. also, i would be considered extremely tight by most standards here and i typically play those hands from early position so i can't believe i would want to fold them from middle position. also, i sometimes feel like mp1 should be treated similar to ep strategy. SSHE suggests playing any 2 suited cards 10 or higher in ep regardless if there have been limpers and ITH suggests playing a7s, a8s, and a9s first in from ep. you definitely would not raise these hands first in from ep so i think there is a strong argument not to raise first in from mp1. as far as posting it in the high stakes forum, again, i posted it there because that's what i play and those games are much tighter and more aggressive than the middle limit games which would affect the strategy used.

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I have a pretty small sample, only 75000 hands and 25000 of that is short handed but I have had some success with these hands from early position. Most of these hands are from 15/30 and 30/60 and I pretty much limp with them all. Using OP's starting hand minus A7s. So with A9s, A8s, KTs, QTs, and TJs I have made

UTG - <font color="red"> $178 </font>
UTG+1- $1577
UTG+2- $1543
UTG+3- <font color="red"> $82 </font>

For an overall profit of $2860 or $12.27 per hand. I think you are giving up too much by folding these hands especially if you have a limper. I don't see why you should be so worried about being isolated by an aggressive player and having to fold the flop when you miss. Chances are he's not isolating you with less than K high so he has you beat. I remember playing in a game once where everybody was playing tight and aggressive preflop, mostly just blind steals. I got QTs or TJs UTG and limped. Five or six players limped in behind me. There was some pretty heavy action that hand and a big pot was created. After that hand the table loosened up considerably and there was a lot more limping, it could have been partly due to tilt or maybe it was just coincidence and everybody now has lots of limping hands but I like to think I coaxed these bad players into it by showing them its OK to limp.

Anyway, I see in your post that you know you may be giving up some profit by not playing these hands so do want you want I just thought I would share some results. I would be interested in seeing some other players results that have much larger databases than I do.

regards

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Roy, thanx for your imput. I suspect I may indeed be giving up some profits here. I will say that once one person limps in I will also limp in with all the hands the OP mentioned with the exception of A7s. I prefer 2 limpers with this hand(dont ask me why cuz I dont have a logical reason, this is just my default multi-table online strategy) But I will say that I do not like the Idea of open raising any of these hands from MP1, with no reads on the table, but I will open raise with most of them from MP2. I think the major theme of this thread is that there is a huge difference between MP1 and MP2, and I strongly agree with this view point.

[goofball]

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what hands, if any, do you open limp from middle position? in mp2 or beyond i either open raise or fold. mp1 i will open limp with KTs, QTs, JTs, A9s, A8s, A7s.

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Just raise goddamnit. Raising is better than calling. I would raise most of the time with all the hands you list.

From MP1, I am folding most of those hands most of the time. I would occasionally open with A9s, KTs, and JTs, but that would be very dependent on my image at the table, the texture of the game, and my recent play. The vast majority, they're all easy folds.

If you are going to play them, though, more often than not you'll get more EV out of opening instead of limping. That too is dependent on many factors, but I believe the aggression factor will be to your benefit more often than not.

From MP2, I think it reasonable to widen that a little bit, again with an emphasis on opening instead of limping. Opening some of the time with all of the hands you listed.

[Edit: All of my thoughts assume that you are first in, BTW. If you have limpers in front of you, all of those hands are limp or fold, most of the time, in MP1 or MP2.]

[newhizzle]

i generally try not to open limp from early position unless the games really good, its a very rare occaision that i open limp from middle

[elindauer]

Hi roy,

There is huge confusion over where posts belong, which is the source of the conflict here.

I would argue that the high limit forum is for discussion about hands played against particular types of tables / players. The OP asks "what hands would you open here" with no mention of table dynamic, his image, who's in the blinds, etc etc.

The fact that he may be a beginner asking about strategy in high limit games (though, I highly doubt this), is irrelevent. If you want general advice about playing in tough games, go read HFAP. If he wants to ask here, then the question should be posed in the beginner like this: "if you were playing in a tight, tough game, what hands would you open in MP?" etc.

This is just my opinion of what belongs here though, which is why I answered his question respectfully and suggested by the way he should probably post further questions somewhere else, as this is my sense of what others expect as well.

-Eric

[elindauer]

So, you agree that your post was posted in the correct place? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If I may be so bold as to speak for others, I think most posters equate "high limit" with "advanced" and "experienced" and expect this to be a forum for highly experienced players. What, after all, would otherwise be the point of dividing up the limits this way?

For example, if I post:

Hi, I was playing in a 40-80 home game full of rich traders who had never played before, including myself. What should I raise with preflop?


Would that be a good high limit post? I'd say no. Even though it is a high limit game, the question itself is basically a beginner question, and belongs in the beginner forum.

Now, if you phrased it this way:

Hi, I was playing in a 40/80 game where the button was raising and 3-betting every hand preflop. Both blinds were solid players, only defending with premium hands. What hands should I raise in the CO?

Then I'd say that's much more appropriate. Any preflop question in this forum should contain some kind of player style / situation description relevent to high stakes games.


Of course, if it were up to me, I'd say that dividing games based on limit is stupid, and they really should be divided up more like "loose-passive games", "loose-aggressive games", "tough games", etc. I'd expect the tough games to be mostly high limit games, and the loose-passive to be mostly low limit games, but not always.

For example, if I play a 2/4 game with bicyclekick, mike, tommy, etc in some 2+2 spinoff, is the strategy discussion really meant for low stakes? Probably not.

I see that your opinion is perfectly valid though. I just don't think it's widely shared.

-Eric

[mj2]

i'm not a beginning player asking for preflop advice. maybe i should have been more clear as to why i was asking this question. i thought i was clear but probably not clear enough. the reason i asked is because it was a recent change/experiment i was trying out. in the past, i absolutely never limped first in from middle position. after a couple hundred thousand hands that i've played the last couple years, i've realized that you can't play mp1 and mp2 and mp3 the same just because the books call them all middle position. and since you make most of your money post-flop, that's where i have spent most or all of my time trying to improve. i haven't made many or any changes to my standard preflop play in a long time but recently i have been putting some more thought into where i might be able to make some changes. its hard to analyze the results of this experiment because it will take forever to have enough hands in poker tracker to have meaniful stats. so i just threw it on here to get others opinions. the problem with posting this in a "beginner" forum is that i would get beginner advice and thats not what i'm looking for. how many beginners do you know that distinguish between mp1, mp2 and mp3? as far as the type of players at the table, i was referring to the typical 30/60 table at party. obviously, if the table is not typical you would have to adjust. i don't think you need to post stats for everyone at the table everytime you post a question.