Hand Groupings

[Shandrax]

Hello,
I am totally confused about the value of Hand Groupings in No Limit Hold'Em.

Now we all (hopefully) know the groupings from 2+2 "Hold'Em for Advanced Players", but there have been arguments floating around the net that they might have to be adjusted slightly and that they are (or maybe not?!?!?) only valid for limit games.

I have also found someone advocating a counting-system, but I think it can be dismissed easily, because it overrates the value of hands like K9 and underrates the value of 56s for example.

The big problem occurs when you watch the video from Howard Lederer about No Limit games, because he is suggesting groupings that are quite different from what I believed to be the "ultimate truth".

Now my questions are:
A. Are hand groupings a matter of "taste" and experience or is there a mathematically proven ranking that stands once and forever? I mean, is AKs better than JJ or not? Those are the kind of problems I am talking about.

B. Is there a difference in rankings between Low-Limit, Pot-Limit and No-Limit games?

Any suggestions or any links to articles about the subject maybe?

[Shandrax]

Getting zero answers despite this being a rather active forum can mean 3 things:

1. The answer is so obvious, that it is even a shame to ask
2. People are somehow left in the dark and don't know the answer either
3. The answer is a trade secret that should not be shared

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting zero answers despite this being a rather active forum can mean 3 things:

1. The answer is so obvious, that it is even a shame to ask
2. People are somehow left in the dark and don't know the answer either
3. The answer is a trade secret that should not be shared

[/ QUOTE ]

4. It depends.

[Shandrax]

5. The answer is 42!

[disjunction]

#1 holds. Note by the low number of views, people are bored by this topic, and the question makes it obvious you haven't read much of these forums. That being said, it's a naive question, but not a dumb one -- I'll answer because maybe it will bring posting karma for my future questions =)

The guy who said "it depends" is correct. One way to look at it -- AKs is better than JJ if an ace flops, JJ is better if not. Of course, if you're guaranteed to take them to showdown, JJ is better heads up (see www.twodimes.net). But wait, maybe if there are 7 people in the pot, AKs will make a lot of money off of making the nut-flush. Or there's this one -- 22 is only slightly better than AK, and so is 77, but if you know your opponent has 77, you'd rather have AK than 22.

In general, suited cards are better for multiway hands, big cards are better heads up, big pairs are better than anything, and small pairs are also multiway. There's a 2+2 book that's supposed to come out soon (look around the website) that will help with these concepts.

[Shandrax]

That's an answer I can work with. Still I am not sure if it "depends", because it is cruical for the pre-flop strategy.

Assume my opponent just moved all in and let's say for a miraculous reason I know he has A-Ks. Now I cannot just wait if he flops an ace or a king or not. I have to make the decision right here.

Since I only meant the showdown between two hards, I should call in this case. Now I'll go to Howard's site and ask him why he is ranking A-Ks higher than J-J [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Cooker]

Good hand rankings take into account how easy the hand is to play postflop. Basically, if you have 22 heads up, how are you going to know if you are ahead on the flop if you don't flop a 2 and your opponent bets? Similar with 33 and 44. However, all these hands are favorites over AKs before the flop.

If you just want to know preflop favorites and approximate odds percentages in preflop all in situations, then here are the general rules of thumb (they vary slightly dependent upon the specific hands). A pair is about a 14 to 1 favorite over two unpaired card with one card the same rank as the pair and the other smaller than the pair. A pair is about a 2.5 to 1 favorite over two unpaired card with one card the same rank as the pair and the other higher than the pair. A pair is about a 4 to 1 favorite over a smaller pair. A pair is about a 4.5 to 1 favorite over 2 unpaired smaller cards. A pair is about a 2.5 to 1 favorite over one bigger and one smaller card. A pair is about 1.2 to 1 favorite over 2 bigger unpaired cards (suited connectors JT and below are actually slight favorites over underpairs that are not directly below them ie JTs is a slight favorite over 77). If both players have unpaired cards and don't share any cards, whoever has the biggest card is about a 3 to 2 favorite. This can get very close to even money if one hand is very well coordinated and the other isn't (A7 is only a slight favorite over JTs). If both players have unpaired cards and share a card in common, whoever has the higher side card is about a 3 to 1 favorite (this could be very near even money if the side cards are both very low ie K4 is only a very slight favorite over K3 with many split pots). This should be everything you need to know to be able to figure out what to do heads up in an all-in preflop situation where you absolutely know your opponents hand. Note: these odds are approximate and can probably vary as much as 10% depending on the specific cards and any known dead cards in the hand.

And to answer your question, if you are getting 3 to 1 on your money and you could call the AKs blind if it is heads up. It won't be that far ahead of any hand. Let me illustrate exactly why it depends. If the blinds are really low compared to both stacks, then you are only getting about 1 to 1 on your call and would want a pair to ensure you were the favorite. If the blinds are huge compared to your stack, say you have less money than the big blind, you will be correct to call with any 2 cards if you know the big blind and small blind would fold as you are nowhere near as far behind as the price you will be getting. See, it really depends.

[Shandrax]

Excellent info, thanks a lot.

I hope you understand why I was confused. When different highly qualified sources advertise different hand groupings, then I need to find out who is right.