Craps

BlindingLaser · #1 10-20-2005, 09:57 AM

Is there any recommended resources for how to throw dice? Is there any way to alter the throw or grip to be +EV at the game? Is it similar to blackjack, do casinos kick you right out if you're throwing suspiciously? I'm a total novice and have basically no clue, so anything interesting you know about the subject is much appreciated, thanks!

Runner Runner · #2 10-20-2005, 04:31 PM

Positive expectation craps is a pure grind. Just go to any casino and watch the higher level tables where you will see several shooters who are grinding out a living by rolling dem bones. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously though, do a google search under dice setting or precision shooting or go to rec.gambling.craps and do a search. You will find some information on the subject, but I am pretty sure it is all b.s.

#3 10-20-2005, 05:00 PM

The very very short answer is no. Cheating is the only way of beating the game...if you can get away with it, which is very very unlikely.

playersare · #4 10-20-2005, 05:10 PM

IMO, advantage craps is only a theory which has not been satisfyingly proven yet. the main problem is that the theory involves the physical skill of throwing dice rather than something mathematical like counting cards or calculating pot odds where a long-term EV can be determined in advance. there are also too many random factors like table size, felt and wall composition, extraneous chips laid about, etc that could impede actual performance and results.

I have not personally tried to read any books on the subject, but the noted authors in this "field" are Frank Scoblete, 'Sharpshooter', and more recently, Stanford Wong. believe at your own risk.

BlindingLaser · #5 10-20-2005, 06:57 PM

What I googled up seemed to mostly be dice-setting, but mentioned something they called a "whip-throw", which presumably puts enough backspin on the dice to basically keep them on the four sides that are spinning vertically while the dice are getting thrown. Presumably, if you could eliminate even one face of one die on some percentage of your throws you could place advantageous bets, since craps has such a relatively small HA.

In terms of dice-setting, over how many rolls would you have to have a significant difference from the normal distribution to be significant? It would be smaller than the number of required hands in a significant sample size in poker, because there's a smaller number of outcomes, correct?

I guess I'm partially interested because if everybody thinks it's voodoo, there wouldn't be a lot of heat attached, correct? Are you allowed to set the dice in plain view, or is that frowned upon?

SheetWise · #6 10-20-2005, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you allowed to set the dice in plain view, or is that frowned upon?

[/ QUOTE ]
In most places, it's encouraged. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Double Down · #7 10-20-2005, 07:57 PM

I have taken a dice setting/precision shooting seminar in Vegas. Yes, it only lasted for the weekend, but by the end, I was throwing the dice for significantly more rolls before I would crap out. And the guys who were teaching the course definitely threw for longer periods than an average shooter. And these guys had been doing this for a living for years.

Sharpshooter has a book called Get the Edge at Craps which is one of the better books on the subject. However, you really need to learn how to do it in person. PM me if you're interested and I can pass along the info from the guys I learned from.

Because of the current "questionability" of precision shooting, a lot of craps dealers still don't believe in it. However, if you are taking too long to set the dice or throw them, you will be asked to hurry it along. This is usually just to keep the game moving though. They will also ask you to hit the back wall. To my knowledge, no one has ever been barred for setting and precision shooting dice, but there were times when we all showed up to a couple joints and we got a little heat. After all, every shooter was taking his sweet time. But it's a lot like counting cards, where part of learning is being able to do it quickly and smoothly enough that it doesn't look out of place.

#8 10-20-2005, 09:35 PM

I cannot believe I'm hearing this!

Is there no end to people thinking they can beat an unbeatable game? Casino owners really love you guys.

SheetWise · #9 10-21-2005, 12:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
... I was throwing the dice for significantly more rolls before I would crap out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently they didn't spend a lot of time on terminology.

[ QUOTE ]
... we all showed up to a couple joints and we got a little heat. After all, every shooter was taking his sweet time. But it's a lot like counting cards...

[/ QUOTE ]
It's nothing like counting cards. What you mistook for "heat", was frustration over the pace of the game. If you were putting up any action, the response would have been comps.

stickman · #10 10-21-2005, 11:03 AM

Why does everyone think they can get rich in this game? Especially grinding it out with nickel cheques. I used to deal and supervise craps. All "precision shooters" lost like the others. Scoblete and his "crew" played at my table several times, and lost just like the other suckers.
The only reason we put heat on these guys was because they brought the game to a grinding halt.