Yet another ruling question, please

#1 11-10-2005, 04:20 PM

(NL) Three players in the hand and down comes the flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Player A and B check, Player C bets the pot and both players call. The turn comes 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Player A bets, Player B calls, Player C raises, Player A goes all-in.

Player B decides to fold, but shows one card to Player A before mucking. I think that Player C has the right to see this hand. Player B's argument for not showing is that Player A can no longer act on his hand, as he is already all-in.

wslee00 · #2 11-10-2005, 04:26 PM

player c still has to act - why should he get to see the card? I agree w/ player b's argument - I don't think it's even a question. However, it was probably not good judgement for player b to show player a the card while there was action left

AngusThermopyle · #3 11-10-2005, 04:27 PM

Player B gets KITN.
The card he exposed is put off to the side (face down) and shown to everybody after Player C acts (calls or folds).
Player A got no immediate advantage by seeing the card, but Player C would if you showed the card before he makes his decision.

BoxTree · #4 11-10-2005, 04:38 PM

Player C should get to see the exposed card. Even though Player A has completed all of his possible actions for this hand, Player A still has unfairly gained information that is not available to Player C. If that information has the potential to affect Player A's mannerisms, etc., then Player A has unfairly gained an advantage.

Consider this scenario:

Player B mucks and then leans over to Player A and whispers something to Player A. Should Player C get to hear what Player B whispered?

#5 11-10-2005, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Player C should get to see the exposed card. Even though Player A has completed all of his possible actions for this hand, Player A still has unfairly gained information that is not available to Player C. If that information has the potential to affect Player A's mannerisms, etc., then Player A has unfairly gained an advantage.

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This was my logic. Player A is still in a spot to act on this newfound information, in an attempt to induce a call/fold.

#6 11-10-2005, 06:13 PM

That would be a great angle shoot - my buddy gets pused all in and has to make a decision, so I show my hand to the bettor (who is all-in) so my buddy gets to see my hand too.

I don't think this is the correct ruling. I think you have to put the card aside and show it after the betting is completed.

Black Aces 518 · #7 11-10-2005, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Player C should get to see the exposed card. Even though Player A has completed all of his possible actions for this hand, Player A still has unfairly gained information that is not available to Player C. If that information has the potential to affect Player A's mannerisms, etc., then Player A has unfairly gained an advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my logic. Player A is still in a spot to act on this newfound information, in an attempt to induce a call/fold.

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No. The information is overwhelmingly more valuable to C at this point than A. Maybe in your situation A and B are buds, and that's clouding your judgment. What if they had never seen each other before? B shows A and mucks. Then C should still get to see? A would be damaged badly by something he had no control over. That is awful.

Masquerade · #8 11-10-2005, 06:25 PM

A has not gained any advantage whatsoever from seeing the hand (as he is allin) so it would be unfair for C to potentially gain some advantage, therefore I don't accept his argument that he should see the card before he acts.

However I think B should stop showing cards while there are still people to act (even if the person he shows is allin) and be warned to that effect.

ZenMusician · #9 11-10-2005, 06:26 PM

Who cares?

He showed his neighbor a dry Ace (obviously) and I like
extra information...intentional or not. Looks like I can
get him off top pair on some other hand...

Open fold, show your AI neighbor your cards...whatever.

-ZEN

BoxTree · #10 11-10-2005, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That would be a great angle shoot - my buddy gets pused all in and has to make a decision, so I show my hand to the bettor (who is all-in) so my buddy gets to see my hand too.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent rebuttal. I wonder if the floor should consider the relationships among A, B, and C when making his decision.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is the correct ruling. I think you have to put the card aside and show it after the betting is completed.

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If it's decided that Player C does not get to see the exposed card, then I definitely agree that everyone should get to see the exposed card after the hand is over.