Folded JJ on on a rag flop

hemstock · #1 10-27-2005, 05:28 PM

Villain is 43/8.7/1.5 after about 80 hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 5 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

What hand caps preflop and doesnt slow down on the flop?
Weak fold?

UATrewqaz · #2 10-27-2005, 05:32 PM

I think you gotta go into call down mode... villain could play AK/TT/99 or the highly unlikely JJ the exact same way. I seriously doubt of course he has a 6.

He's gonna show you an overpair a good deal of the time, but given his stats he's loose and pretty aggressive, so I say call it down, especially at Party, especially at 1/2.

EDIT:

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would love this flop just fine.

crownjules · #3 10-27-2005, 05:33 PM

TT/99, possibly A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I'd 3-bet and then call down, espeically if an A/K doesn't fall. His AF is pretty high given him VPIP, suggesting that he may also get overaggressive PF with suspect hands (ie capping with hands you or I would simply call when facing 3-bets). Additionally, the flop raise could be with OCs + a draw.

#4 10-27-2005, 05:35 PM

I would not have folded. The texture of the flop is such that a pre-flop raiser will often will not have been helped (low cards, and only the 6 improves his hand over yours). Sure, he could have AA-QQ, but those are the only 3 likely hands that beat you right now; in light of his very loose stats, I think more times than not he does not have AA-QQ. I think it is more likely he has overcards, probably Broadways (also note: there are more combinations of overcards than of AA-QQ).

I have called down after Villain raised the flop.

Edit: I think a very wide range of hands from a very loose player like this will cap pf and not slow down on the flop: AA-TT. AKs-ATs. KQs-KJs. AK-AQo.

#5 10-27-2005, 05:38 PM

That's a tough one. I hate to fold an overpair, but the only hands I can see that you beat are either AK and possibly AQs. I'm not sure how much credit to give his 80 hands of 8.7% pfr, but at least it's not completely narrow. The question is whether or not this player will cap a lot w/ non-big PP. Some players like to cap to spite 3-bettors, I've noticed. At least the bad ones.

If the player is tricky, he'll raise the flop w/ overcards + flush draw (possibly even BDFD). But I doubt you are winning here and doubt this is a tricky/fancy player.

I think the fold is good depending how you think the player plays. I can see how you could call down.

bozlax · #6 10-27-2005, 05:41 PM

This might be one where I use the clock to peek at Villan's PAF by street. If he's uber-aggro on the flop I probably call the raise and plan to check-raise him on a safe (non-broadway, non-[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] turn). If he 3-bets the turn raise, I call and check/fold the river.

nomadtla · #7 10-27-2005, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What hand caps preflop and doesnt slow down on the flop?
Weak fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's weak. I think if you can't fold this flop to a raise then you should check/call, but I think gievn preflop acction bet/fold is a good line.

aces_dad · #8 10-27-2005, 05:51 PM

His PFR isn't that high relative to his VPIP, and hopefully you would have noticed by now if he'll cap pf and raise flop with UI overs.

Most villians won't though, and you're behind larger PP a good percentage of the time here. Usually I'll call down in this spot but I'm thinking it may be better to lay it down immediately against straightforward opponents. You don't mention his pf capping range, I like to note if it's light for cases like this.

AlmightyJay · #9 10-27-2005, 05:54 PM

I really don't think many 8.7% PFR are capping AQ, TT, or 99. The only hand I can conceivably think you're ahead against here is AK[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

aces_dad · #10 10-27-2005, 05:54 PM

This is a shot you'll take against over-aggro flop players right? Why call the turn 3bet of your c/r at all, if you're planning on folding the river UI? Just for meta-game reasons?

If I suspect villian is aggro on flop I'm more likely to just call down here and get to showdown cheaply than take a shot on the turn. I've c/c turn and donked the river successfully against flop lags (who then just call the river) in situations like this before.