Line with AK TPTK

[baronzeus]

Just your average terrible pokerstars player.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero....?


I think I raise here for value, right?

[Joe826]

Why not raise the flop, or the turn? I like either better than a river raise. Keep in mind that NOT getting a raise in somewhere with this hand is just bad poker, so if it so happened that I failed to raise either the flop or the turn, yeah--i'd raise the river.

[JrJordan]

You need to put in a raise somewhere, since you're essnetially ahead of everything except AA, JJ and possibly AJ, but it's doubtful that would cap PF. A river raise gets you max value from an underpair KK/QQ whereas they might fold to a turn raise. I'm sure you ran into AA or JJ this time, but HU with TPTK in general, a raise somewhere in this pot is +EV.

[JrJordan]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not raise the flop, or the turn? I like either better than a river raise. Keep in mind that NOT getting a raise in somewhere with this hand is just bad poker, so if it so happened that I failed to raise either the flop or the turn, yeah--i'd raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. This is a clear case of being way ahead or way behind. If the villain wants to continue firing, we're more than happy for him to do so. However, raising the flop or turn is going to allow worse hands to get away cheaply and better hands to 3-bet us. By waiting until the river, we get max value from the worse hands (who most likely will call just one more bet with a KK/QQ type hand but could fold on the turn when they have to call two more), though still probably have to call a 3-bet from a better one.

[ZZZ]

Yeah, I think you're ahead/tied enough to raise and call a 3 bet. I think it's better to raise the turn against someone who you're pretty sure will pay off with KK/QQ, since those hands will often check the river.

ZZZ

[Joe826]

What happens when KK/QQ gets nervous about all the calls and decides to check/call the river? On the other other, I can't think of one hand that villain (a bad 2/4 player) is folding to a flop or a turn a raise and then one more on the river.

[mistrpug]

If villian is aggresive, waiting until the river to raise is excellent. Against most opponents, I just raise the turn, but I think waiting til the river might be better in most cases.

[JrJordan]

[ QUOTE ]
What happens when KK/QQ gets nervous about all the calls and decides to check/call the river? On the other other, I can't think of one hand that villain (a bad 2/4 player) is folding to a flop or a turn a raise and then one more on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the player who is willing to check/call the river is the exact type of player who is will to fold to a turn raise, in which case you're maximizing value. It's possible KK and QQ could call a turn raise, however other possible hands from a "horrible PS player" could include 99 and TT, which will indeed fold.

In this case, I waiting until the river outweighs the possible extra BB of raising the turn.

[Joe826]

horrible players don't fold. they do play weakly.

[Willluck]

easy, easy, easy raise on the turn, imo.