I guess it's time to get it all in -- flop bluff - Page 2

theweatherman · #11 11-07-2005, 01:56 PM

umm you just reiterated my post.

Bluff = mandatory.
Over bet = bad, stupid, and a poor bluff.

scdavis0 · #12 11-07-2005, 01:57 PM

Can you please show me where you ever said that the bluff was mandatory?

I mean PRIOR to Ghazban saying so.

theweatherman · #13 11-07-2005, 02:02 PM

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I agree that if you are planning on raising in position then you probably have to bet almost any flop (maybe not a As Ks Qs) But your over bet is ridiculous and terrible.

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MarkD · #14 11-07-2005, 02:03 PM

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I have no problem with the raise; just the amount. I agree that the raise is mandatory.

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This quote, and this entire hand, makes me want to learn NL more.

scdavis0 · #15 11-07-2005, 02:04 PM

I will also say that the one benefit of going ahead and pushing all-in on a stone bluff is being able to advertise it.

Many of us here make overbet pushes for value but NEVER (as in absolute never ever ever) overbet pushes on bluffs. This is for good reason. Our opponents on Party certainly don't like to go to bed wondering, and those overbets for value work out great. If you are playing someone that is observant of your game at all though, you will cease to get action in these situations.

In a situation like this where the overbet bluff is only $50-60 extra in an already big pot, it may be worth it to go ahead and overbet it and show (a la Spirit Rock). It's rare and shocking to see this sort of play at a table. And people certainly do take notice. The certainly don't want to be the next guy that folds and shown 5 high.

If other players at the table are deep with you, they may not fold any piece of the board on the flop, and you can make some pretty sick value overbets with an overpair, TPTK, etc.

I had a confrontation with the same villain later on in the evening.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO ($125.15)
Button ($189.55)
Hero ($234.10)
BB ($93.60)
UTG ($14.02)
MP ($301.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
4 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $7, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($16) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero calls $226.10 (All-In), BB calls $85.60 (All-In).

Turn: ($327.70) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($327.70) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $327.70

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Qs (flush, queen high).
BB has Ad Js (flush, jack high).
Outcome: Hero wins $327.70. 

This obviously isn't the best example because he only had half a buy-in. But had I for example raised an AK at this table and had the flop come A74 rainbow. I would have just gone ahead and stuck it all in on the flop for $200. People just aren't going to fold AJ there.

theweatherman · #16 11-07-2005, 02:10 PM

whats your party name? I can't wait to stack you.

scdavis0 · #17 11-07-2005, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
whats your party name? I can't wait to stack you.

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Send me a PM. I'll be happy to play you heads up on a private table. Please don't misinterpret this as a personal challenge, but if you think it is a +EV spot for you then let's do it. I can't imagine I'd be taking the worst of it.

#18 11-07-2005, 02:16 PM

I am not making this play against an unknown. I would need something to tell me villain is capable of laying a hand down before I bluff my stack off with 5 high. Your play looks like a bluff, maybe a club draw…If you play your monsters like this too, I see nothing wrong with it, but I would want to make sure I have some fold equity before I proceed.

Kyriefurro · #19 11-07-2005, 02:29 PM

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I am not making this play against an unknown.

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Yeah, that's the part that I don't like. There are just way too many fish out there who will call this with a draw, A high, a naked 3, etc.

You never know when villain is going to turn out to be a tricky LAG with T3. His weak flop bet just might have been a deliberate attempt to induce just this type of raise.

theweatherman · #20 11-07-2005, 02:29 PM

this point may have merit, but you also lose your stack when you donk it away aginst a set, two pair or any number of better hands. To me this seems to be a very limited play which may work against one or two opponents, however a good player at the table will see thorugh this and may be able to get into a situation to easily stack you.