help me understand - overpushing big draws

[Morrek]

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Just to add something else, if you're going to push draws here, you should also occasionally be pushing you big made hands(ie. sets) correct?

If you fall into the habit of only pushing on your draws you're going to lose your fold equity. Though maybe I'm incorrect in this assessment.

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If you believe your opponents are paying attention, then yes you probably should. Myself I don't find these situations very often and I often get called and lose to a higher flushdraw or something. But I only play 50nl/100nl so people are often happy to go allin with semi-crap.

[xorbie]

I like to look at it this way. Raising to $70 here is almost always a better move, both in the space of this play and for metagame considerations. If he has AK, he still folds right? If he pushes, oh well. We call. Trust me, a push is not folding JJ+ anyway, so don't worry about the fold equity here. If he does end up pushing AK.. well we're a pretty solid favorite. I'll live. And honestly, I think a raise to $70 has the same exact FE as a push, with the obviously positive bonus of sometimes allowing you to see a free card if he does just call with JJ+ (which is certainly possible).

Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

[Godfather80]

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I like to look at it this way. Raising to $70 here is almost always a better move, both in the space of this play and for metagame considerations. If he has AK, he still folds right? If he pushes, oh well. We call. Trust me, a push is not folding JJ+ anyway, so don't worry about the fold equity here. If he does end up pushing AK.. well we're a pretty solid favorite. I'll live. And honestly, I think a raise to $70 has the same exact FE as a push, with the obviously positive bonus of sometimes allowing you to see a free card if he does just call with JJ+ (which is certainly possible).

Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes more sense to me.

[Morrek]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to look at it this way. Raising to $70 here is almost always a better move, both in the space of this play and for metagame considerations. If he has AK, he still folds right? If he pushes, oh well. We call. Trust me, a push is not folding JJ+ anyway, so don't worry about the fold equity here. If he does end up pushing AK.. well we're a pretty solid favorite. I'll live. And honestly, I think a raise to $70 has the same exact FE as a push, with the obviously positive bonus of sometimes allowing you to see a free card if he does just call with JJ+ (which is certainly possible).

Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

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The problem with not pushing double draws like this is IMO the turn play, if you miss do you still wanna go allin? What if the flush hits and he bets big?

[PinkSteel]

xorbie, this sounds at least as good as pushing as long as you have position. But does your answer change if villain is to your left? If you're OOP, a blank turn gets awkward.

[meleader2]

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In fact, the folding equity is key here. Without the chance that the opponent will fold to the push, there's no reason to push.

That is why I was specific that I mmake this play, "against this opponent." Against a nut-peddling learning TAG, the push has a lot of FE.

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i like this alot. except the times they mull it over, say to you "this is a bad call" and calls anyway. oh well.

[xorbie]

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The problem with not pushing double draws like this is IMO the turn play, if you miss do you still wanna go allin? What if the flush hits and he bets big?

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The whole point of the flop raise is to check if you miss. If he pushes after the flush hits you obviously call.

[xorbie]

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xorbie, this sounds at least as good as pushing as long as you have position. But does your answer change if villain is to your left? If you're OOP, a blank turn gets awkward.

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Bet/3-bet or check raise all in are fine.

[orange]

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Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

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I think this is key. If we play our super draws like a set (as in, raising to $70 or whatever, instead of pushing), I think we can get more FE by doing a larger raise instead of pushing. It looks more like a big hand, whereas pushing makes it look more like a draw.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to look at it this way. Raising to $70 here is almost always a better move, both in the space of this play and for metagame considerations. If he has AK, he still folds right? If he pushes, oh well. We call. Trust me, a push is not folding JJ+ anyway, so don't worry about the fold equity here. If he does end up pushing AK.. well we're a pretty solid favorite. I'll live. And honestly, I think a raise to $70 has the same exact FE as a push, with the obviously positive bonus of sometimes allowing you to see a free card if he does just call with JJ+ (which is certainly possible).

Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

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amen