help me understand - overpushing big draws

[teamdonkey]

taken from GrunchCan's post yesterday:

[ QUOTE ]
Stars 1/2 NL, effective stacks $200 all around.

UTG is a typical learning TAG, who tends to nut-peddle. Opens pot for $10. All fold to Hero on the button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero calls, blinds fold.

2 to the flop for $23. Flop comes 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG bets $23.

In this scenario, against this opponent, I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

several respected posters noted that this was "perfect", but i can't quite get my mind around these types of situations. Pushing $190 into a $46 pot seems wrong to me. If this is really the correct play, what do you do different with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here, and why? I feel like there's something i'm fundamentally missing here.

[OatmealJoe]

With a strong draw, you are almost even money to win (if he calls), not counting folding equity. You are also guaranteed to see both cards. If you just call and miss on the turn, you may not have the odds to call a large bet. Additionally, if you hit your hand (i.e. a flush hits), he may not pay you off. So you may win less when you hit your hand on the turn, and get pushed off your hand if you miss the turn.

[subzero]

I think the idea is that you're pretty sure your opponent has an overpair or AK and you have 12 solid outs to complete your draw. That makes you about even money to the river. You have a good amount of fold equity here (put yourself in your opponent's shoes holding AA with no spade). Even if he calls, you're getting decent pot odds. The fold equity helps make this move +EV too.

[GrunchCan]

In fact, the folding equity is key here. Without the chance that the opponent will fold to the push, there's no reason to push.

That is why I was specific that I mmake this play, "against this opponent." Against a nut-peddling learning TAG, the push has a lot of FE.

[GrunchCan]

By the way, if you haven't read Kane's article (linked in my post yesterday), you really should. He discusses this in depth there.

[teamdonkey]

i understand that its +EV, that doesn't necessarily make it the best move. I know with this flop its a strong hand. I'm just not sure why it's best to play this differently than other strong hands here (flopped set, straight).

[GrunchCan]

Well with a flopped made hand (like a set), when the opponent folds that's a bad thing. When we have no hand (but a draw), it's a good thing.

With the set, we're a big favorite against his range, so we want to get all his chips in the middle. We want him to call, and it would suck if he didn't.

With the big draw where I pushed, I was hopiing he would fold. I didn't mind if he called.

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, the folding equity is key here. Without the chance that the opponent will fold to the push, there's no reason to push.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. If executed at the right time, it's a strong move. I'd love pushing someone of AA or KK when all I have is 8-high. Whether you show your hand down or not, you get some advertising as a LAG. You may increase your chances of getting paid later when you do have a hand.

[lautzutao]

Just to add something else, if you're going to push draws here, you should also occasionally be pushing you big made hands(ie. sets) correct?

If you fall into the habit of only pushing on your draws you're going to lose your fold equity. Though maybe I'm incorrect in this assessment.

[The_Bends]

That is true, but only relevent against opponents you know are taking notes on how you play.