Spewing?

Percy101 · #1 07-23-2005, 12:35 AM

Ok, both of these situations I think I'm just giving away money. Thoughts?

Hand 1:
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls, UTG raises, Hero calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (8.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, CO folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Hand 2:
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 caps, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, Button calls, BB calls, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

River: (16.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB

I hate my flop raise here. Villain was pretty tight; If I hadn't worked out I was behind already the King high flop should have sealed it, yes?

zCereal · #2 07-23-2005, 12:48 AM

well you gotta think, what are they raising with that you beat? if you look at both your hands, almost nothing. that's what you have to consider when looking at marginal situations such as these where you are getting raised, what likely holdings would they raise with, and how many of those you beat.

Boolean · #3 07-23-2005, 01:09 AM

I think it's impossible to know what exactly to do without reads, but here goes anyhow:

Hand one:
I'm not even sure if I bet this flop. Assume you have 99 here instead, do you bet? After the check-raise trapping the whole field, you're behind quite often. I either raise or fold this river depending on my reads to prevent overcalls.

Hand two:
You have a pocket pair under top pair with backdoor straight and flush draws. The pot is huge and you have enough pot-odds to call IMO. A raise can be good here if you think it can buy you a free card on the turn. Being 3-bet here sucks though, so I think I'd probably call the flop unless the preflop raiser is very loose/passive.

On the turn, I'll probably call a decent card (heart or any card making us a straight draw), and of course, raise any jack.

eviljeff · #4 07-23-2005, 01:31 AM

hand 1:
absent a manaical read, I think folding to a raise on the flop is pretty easy.

hand 2:
I like the flop raise, but after you're 3bet I think it's time to let go.
edit: actually I totally forgot about your draws. call the 3bet, fold the turn UI

Dave G. · #5 07-23-2005, 02:18 AM

Hand 1
Fold the river. If UTG bets on the turn, fold the turn. The only reason you're calling UTGs flop raise is because you have a backdoor straight draw. Without that, you should fold the flop to his raise. With 3 other people it's very likely one of them has an A or a K.

Hand 2
What are you doing raising the flop? This is spewing, terrible raise. MP2 capped preflop, which means he either has a big pair or AK. Either way his hand is obviously better than yours on the flop. Call the flop and hope to spike your miracle J on the turn. Fold the turn UI.

Don't autoraise the flop just because you think that's what "aggressive" players with underpairs do. You should have a clear reason for raising, and I can't think of one here.

JKDStudent · #6 07-23-2005, 02:20 AM

Hand 1: Fold to the flop raise. Any Ace or King has you beat, you just got check-raised on a board with no flush or OESD potential (meaning no one is pumping a draw), and you have practically no chance of improving.

Hand 2: Raise is good. You're probably behind, but the pot is big. Narrowing the field = higher equity for you. 35% is better than 20% (I just made those numbers up) Call the 3-bet, fold the turn if none of your backdoor draws show up.

Dave G. · #7 07-23-2005, 02:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to the flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can call the flop raise because of the BDSD.

[ QUOTE ]
Raise is good. You're probably behind, but the pot is big. Narrowing the field = higher equity for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are giving a textbook answer to a generic situation, and in this case it's just wrong.

Lets look at it more closely. What does narrowing the field really do? It knocks out the two players you might be ahead of, while pitting you heads up against the one player you know has you crushed.

Narrowing the field down to you and MP2 does not improve your chances of beating MP2. Why do you want to go heads up against a hand that a) has you thoroughly screwed and b) is never ever going to fold?

Moreover, if you do improve by catching your miracle J, you are almost certainly going to be ahead of BB and Button. Why do you want these people to fold when your 2 outer, if it comes in, will put you ahead of them as well?

What you're essentially advocating here is that he should raise to knock out two people who we might be ahead of, and who we will certainly be ahead of if we catch our J, for the opportunity to contribute a higher percentage of the pot against one opponent we know has us bent right over.

I'm sorry but this is terrible advice. This raise is throwing money away and it isn't close.

JKDStudent · #8 07-23-2005, 02:41 AM

You are, of course, right, and I offer myself as a human sacrifice to atone for my sins. I could explain what I was thinking to justify my answer on the second hand (I simply didn't count the bets in the first), but the explaination sounds worse than the original post. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Dave G. · #9 07-23-2005, 02:48 AM

Well, if the explanation is something you use to make decisions then go ahead and explain it so it can be discussed. A human sacrifice won't be necessary, but you can send bottles of alcohol instead if you prefer. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

istewart · #10 07-23-2005, 02:54 AM

For hand 1 I fold to the flop raise, but, with implied odds, it's close.

For hand 2 I call the flop. You're not beating anything, don't isolate someone with a better hand.