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Old 04-26-2005, 06:00 PM
Michael Emery Michael Emery is offline
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Default 10/20 party bluff

So I got sick of playing 8 games of hold'em at once today, and therefore decided to take stream and beers advice and play some stud for a bit. 4 tabling stud games seems like a relaxation exercise compared to the number of hold'em tables I've been trying to play nowadays. Since I havent posted a hand in awhile I figured I might as well post one. While I got to play a few intersting hands I decided on posting this one. Villan is loose and the type of player to limp with any holding. He rarely ever completes on third. He'll limp with big hands and garbage. Furtheremore, he is somewhat tricky every once in awhile. For those that play party often the player was abkkp1959. Hes been a regular stud player on party for as long as I can remember.

7 Card Stud High ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter)

3rd Street

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

River

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

I'll post the result later.

Mike Emery
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  #2  
Old 04-26-2005, 06:12 PM
beta1607 beta1607 is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 party bluff

For some reason I like completing on 3rd. It likely gets the bring-in out and when you catch scary it gives you the opportunity to represent a very strong hand. You also gain more information about where the villan is and can save future bets on later streets by better defining his hand.
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:21 PM
lstream lstream is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 party bluff

Seems to me that with your position, if you are going to push through a bluff then this is the time to try it. The call on third is debateable, but who am I to talk given the last hand I posted. However, getting raised is unlikely given the dead twos yet to act.

Given your description of the villain, his fourth street check likely means that he limped in with nothing, small pair, or a long shot draw. When you bet, he most likely puts you on queens and 8's, since calling on third would line up with split 8's.

Given that he catches bricks all the way through, I would keep pouring it on too, once you have made the commitment on fifth. The only possible alternative is to check on sixth and then bet again on the river. Sometimes such a stutter step makes villain more likely to think that you have caught more help on the last card.

I'm betting that villain folded and you took down the pot. You have to bet the river to avoid an almost guaranteed loss.
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:31 PM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 party bluff

I play it the same most of the time.

Value bet on the end?
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  #5  
Old 04-26-2005, 08:17 PM
Michael Emery Michael Emery is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 party bluff

[ QUOTE ]
Value bet on the end?

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, if I cant confidently value bet my pair of 3's on the river what can I value bet? People who miss value bets like these leave too much money on the table. Hell, the only reason I posted this hand is to show people that you have to have nuts and value bet hands like this. All these people posting silly hands lately like "I checked my flush in fear of a boat for no reason" or "I checked my boat because I was fearfull of quads". Dosent anyone on here know what a good value bet looks like anymore?


Mike Emery
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  #6  
Old 04-26-2005, 11:58 PM
RandomUser RandomUser is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 party bluff

Nicely done.

The key to pulling these types of hands off is the willingness to pull the trigger on 7th street.

Too often I see people who are either bluffing or betting a draw wimp out when they miss on 7th street when betting is the only chance they have of taking down the pot.
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  #7  
Old 04-27-2005, 01:09 AM
SittingBull SittingBull is offline
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Default Hello, Stream! Dropping the ball on 6th and picking it up again..

on 7th is a classical tell of a MOST LIKELY bluff on 7th.
Michael played correctly by driving 6th AND 7th... Sure,this player is loose,BUT is he a calling station?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I hope NOT.. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
SittingBull
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  #8  
Old 04-27-2005, 01:17 AM
SittingBull SittingBull is offline
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Location: Louisiana
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Default Hello,Beta! A LOOSE player is impossible ...

to read. U can't narrow down his holding's.
So completing the bet gives no info. about the loose-goose.
Just taking off a card is BEST--as Michael did.
If U catch a "scare card" and he is a genuine loosy,then u will not "scare" him even if u shove ur fist down his throath. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
HappyPokering,
SittingBull
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  #9  
Old 04-27-2005, 03:23 AM
CarlosChadha CarlosChadha is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 party bluff

Hi All,

Checking my notes on abkkp1959, I see that I have him marked as a passive and very loose player, confirming what Mike said. With the in mind, here is what I'd be thinking on each st.:

3rd - an easy limp with great odds, a live hand, good position (behind the K), and only dead twos behind, but poor odds on a raise with a vulnerable hand.

4th - pretty standard as well, there is a good chance to have the best hand and will win it there, but you'll atleast get it heads up.

5th - Other than the fact that it gives you a 3 flush, catching the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] was pretty terrible. There are two As dead, so it is not going to help you if you are behind, and it cuts down on your ability to bluff out your opponent, since he knows you have a dead card. Worst of all it means that you are almost certainly be out of position for the rest of the hand, and will have to act with little information. There are basically only two types of hands your opponent could have: a pair bigger than 3s, or 3 random live overcards (with probably a backdoor str8 or flush draw). Against any pair, you are pretty firmly behind, having around 33% equity (unless he has Ks, in which case you only have 30%). Against the 3 overcards you have anywhere from 60% to 66% equity, depending on his back door draws. It is a bad spot because if you are ahead your hand is very vulnerable so you really want to bet because there is a decent chance that he will fold many of the unpaired hands. Against a half decent player, I bet here most of the time because they will give up most of their unpaired hands, which would be their more likely holding given that they didn't bet on either 3rd or 4th. But against this very loose passive player it is a whole different story. If you bet and get called you are in a horrible position for the next two betting rounds. You'll have no idea if you are ahead or behind, but your hand is still going to be vulnerable if it is best, so you will have 2 more tough decisions. Plus, there is a decent chance that he is just passively playing a pair and is just going to call you down to the river while you perhaps are induced by his passivity to blunder into the classic mistake of trying to bluff out the calling station. Lastly, even if he is behind, he is not behind by much with many hands, so he could just suck out on you and you'd have no way of knowing he made a pair (whereas often when you suck out he can plainly see it when you hit an open pair on 6th). Basically your hand, board, and position are so weak that you really don't want to blindly put more money (possibly up to $60) into this tiny pot.

I think checking 5th with the intention of folding, but hopefully receiving a free card, is best. By doing this you might take advantage of two of the opponent's weakness: 1st passivity, since there is a great chance that he will give you a free card when he has a pair lower than 8s (and maybe with any pair lower than Qs). 2nd his non-use of position. Most good player's will understand that your check is a clear sign of weakness, and will take the pot away from you with a bet that you can't call with many of the hands that you beat. This guy will probably just check behind without a pair, which although it gives him a free card with the worse hand, it also gives you a little bit of info on his hand, and keeps the pot size small (keeping your skill on later sts. a higher factor). Assuming he checks behind, you'll have a lot more information on 6th to decided whether to bet out if he catches another rag or you improve your hand (any heart or pair card).

In the actual hand where you decide to bet out on 5th, you end up (as predicteded) in a sticky situation on 6th. Once again you don't know where you stand. I'd probably give up on the hand here, once again check folding, or hoping for a free showdown, UNLESS if have noted that this particular player folds to much on 6th or 7th, in which case I'll keep betting. But without any further knowledge that my opponent folds to much on later sts., I am not willing to throw away any more money trying to bluff out a calling station.

On the river I once again check, this time with the intention of snapping off a bluff if it comes (which it will a decent percent of the time against loose passive players who end up with crap on the river, especially those that like to get tricky occasionally as you mentioned). Once again, without any prior knowledge of the opponent bluffing a lot on the river, there is not a lot of reason to believe that he will not call you down with any pair. If you have the best hand, I think you get significantly more value by inducing a bluff because almost anyone is going to bluff v your dead board more than they are going to call with King high.

Regards,
Carlos
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  #10  
Old 04-27-2005, 09:27 AM
lstream lstream is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 party bluff

Carlos,

I could see where you are coming from up until your comments on 7'th. Do you really want to induce a bluff when all you have is a pair of 3's? He could have "crap" and still beat you here. If so, he likely just calls and would have a good shot at winning. It seems that in this circumstance you really have to bet, to have any significant hope of winning the pot and salvaging the entire bluff investment.
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